The FTOP and calling on the river

[Ghazban]

Assuming there are only two people in the pot on the final betting round and one of them bets, isn't it true that calling is always a mistake according to the FTOP? If the caller could see his opponents cards, he'd raise if he was ahead and fold if he was behind.

Obviously, we don't get to see our opponents' hands for certain so calling is often better than raising or folding versus an opponent's entire range of hands, but that's not really what I'm getting at.

Its just really really odd to me that calling on the end headsup is always suboptimal yet it happens on almost every hand.

[WhiteWolf]

Correct, if you knew for certain what your opponent had, calling would never be the correct move per the FTOP. However, incorrectly folding on the river is the most expensive mistake you can make in poker (at least for limit), so this combined with the incomplete information you have to work with, is why you see so many river calls.

[DRKEVDC]

I think that people call when they know they don't have the nuts but think their top pair weak kicker may be good. They don't want to play it to a reraise, yet they don't want to release the hand either.

[pzhon]

Calling is tied for optimal if you have the best hand, but your opponent would fold if you raise.

Some people hate calling, but it is the right play in practice in many situations.

I like just plain calling for a couple reasons.

1.If your oponent is agressive-- always betting the river out of position no matter what he holds-- your raising without the nuts, especially in NL, can put you in sticky situations. furthermore, if your opp can't call a raise, where have you gotten with your raise? nowhere. this brings me to :

2. if you just call, you have the privelage of seeing your opponents hand! This is a great opportunity to gain info on your opponent. Why pass this up?


That said,
don't miss any valuable situations where he has a 2nd best though...

[Ghazban]

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Calling is tied for optimal if you have the best hand, but your opponent would fold if you raise.

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Why? I would think that raising and having him fold would be better because then you wouldn't have to show your hand and therefore give information to your opponents.

[daryn]

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Calling is tied for optimal if you have the best hand, but your opponent would fold if you raise.

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Why? I would think that raising and having him fold would be better because then you wouldn't have to show your hand and therefore give information to your opponents.

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it is, according to the FTOP. the guy who said something about folding the winner being a much larger error is correct.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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Its just really really odd to me that calling on the end headsup is always suboptimal yet it happens on almost every hand.

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Your mistake is in thinking that the FTOP describes a relevant standard for optimal play.

The FTOP is a useful tool for thinking about poker, but you can't really measure yourself against a principle that claims you made a mistake by losing all of your money in a set over set confrontation. It doesn't just say that calling on the river is wrong, it says that a value bet is suboptimal, since you have made a mistake if a hand that beats you calls. A measuring stick which requires supernatural skill, or at least marked cards, to play optimally isn't of that much practical use.