Wait, turns out New Orleans is screwed after all [Archive]

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 01:22 PM

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Warning: politically incorrect statement to follow...

They were screwed the minute they decided to live in a fuking flooded swamp. But hey, they had 200 years of fun /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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while we're being politically incorrect, i hope the people who didn't evacuate and are now crying for someone to save them had a damn good reason for not leaving when told to do so before.

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For many of them: No money, no car, and one million people in line in front of them with money and a car to get out of the city.

To be fair, it's only about a five mile walk from many of these neighborhoods to the Superdome. Once it became clear that they couldn't get out, they could have sucked it up and walked to the Superdome. I'm sure many did.

But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two. Every one so far for the last forty years has missed. There's a serious crying wolf effect. (Not that the evacuation orders in past years were imprudent, mind you.)

You're in your house with three kids and elderly grandparents five miles from nowhere safe with no car and no cash. You're told, "get the hell out," just like you've been told twenty times before. Some people are going to make the wrong decision. I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, they died (or almost died) because they were too dumb to evacuate." There's just more to it than that.

Bottom line is this is a disaster that no one deserved (though it's hard to say that anything in life is really deserved). Rather than look for people to blame, try just being sympathetic to the probably hundreds or thousands who died and to the hundreds of thousands who lost their homes.

InchoateHand

08-30-2005, 01:25 PM

How dare you enter complex, reasoned, understanding to a smugly asinine thread?

lucas9000

08-30-2005, 01:28 PM

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But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two.

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according to the article linked by the op, they were ordered to evacuate.

Sponger15SB

08-30-2005, 01:28 PM

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How dare you enter complex, reasoned, understanding to a smugly asinine thread?

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Exactly what I was thinking. Instead of Ed we've been hearing "[censored] rot in hell" from utmt or whatever his name is.

astroglide

08-30-2005, 01:29 PM

i can see the wolf crying point to a limited extent. if somebody has a black and white antenna television, they can see that this is obviously no common hurricane and that it is infact headed right for them.

lucas9000

08-30-2005, 01:31 PM

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Rather than look for people to blame, try just being sympathetic to the probably hundreds or thousands who died and to the hundreds of thousands who lost their homes.

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i hope this comment about blaming people wasn't directed at me...and i don't think it was.

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 01:44 PM

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Rather than look for people to blame, try just being sympathetic to the probably hundreds or thousands who died and to the hundreds of thousands who lost their homes.

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i hope this comment about blaming people wasn't directed at me...and i don't think it was.

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It wasn't directed at anyone specific. I just know the tendency is to blame people for having done something wrong when this sort of thing happens. Why didn't they get out? Why were they there in the first place?

I guess my point is, having lived in New Orleans for fifteen years, that I understand very well why they were there in the first place and why some of them didn't get out. I certainly don't blame the foolishness of the unfortunate few who were left behind for their fate.

Think about this. Over one million people live in the NO Metro area. There are two main ways out of the city: I-10 and the Causeway (linking to I-12 north of the lake). I simply don't think it's possible to organize and evacuate all million people via those two routes in the two days that NO had notice that this was coming.

Two days notice. Some people are bound to be left behind for one reason or another. And it looks like many of them are now probably dead.

Patrick del Poker Grande

08-30-2005, 01:46 PM

What's going on with all the people in the Superdome?

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 01:54 PM

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What's going on with all the people in the Superdome?

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That's a good question. My guess is that they are all being kept inside until the city gives the ok for people to return.

It looked until late last night that that part of the city had escaped flooding. Unfortuantely, I heard a news report at around midnight PDT from a hospital not too far from the Superdome. They said that a levee holding back the lake in the north part of the city (the lake is actually part of the Gulf of Mexico... they just call it a lake because of its shape) had broken, and lake water was now rushing through the city. The woman said water was rising at a rate of an inch every five minutes, and they had six inches of water on the second floor. (FWIW, the lake is heavily polluted, brackish water, so it will corrode anything it touches.)

So that part of the city I guess is flooded as well with lake water as of last night. I'm fairly certain the people in the Superdome will be sitting tight there probably for a week. Be glad you aren't in there...

MelchyBeau

08-30-2005, 02:07 PM

Do you still have family there?

How did the Metarie area turn out? I got friends there, but I haven't been able to get ahold of them.

Melch

08-30-2005, 02:08 PM

Ok, I'll probably take some heat for this, but that's ok.

While I am (very) sympathetic to all of those affected by this disaster, I do have a question (that most likely cannot be answered).

Why are people allowed to build homes in these areas that look no different then a house you would see anywhere else in the country?

How come there aren't zoning laws in place that say something to the effect of "if you're going to build here, you need to meet these building standards..."?

We see the same areas, year after year, boarding up there houses up with plywood, sandbags and other items to 'shore up' their house. Why? Why are the houses in these areas not built to withstand the harse weather conditions that occur every year? Plywood over the windows? WTF? Why don't these structures have some sort of storm-shutter systems installed?? Why aren't the bottom floors reinforced brick or masonry?

I'm not naive enough to think that all conditions can be prepared for, but there are obviously some structures built in these areas that are still there and I have a hard time believing that this is due to simple chance.

Maybe it's just me, but if I lived in an area such as this, I'm guessing that I would pass on the standard wood frame and sheetrock construction that appearantly do not last long under circumstances such as these.

chesspain

08-30-2005, 02:13 PM

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How come there aren't zoning laws in place that say something to the effect of "if you're going to build here, you need to meet these building standards..."?

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Because it's the Deep South? According to CNN, Mississippi has NO statewide housing codes. I'm not sure about Louisiana, though.

James Boston

08-30-2005, 02:18 PM

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Because it's the Deep South?

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Incorrect. There are housing codes in the south. I don't know why MS doesn't have them, but Alabama does.

To the other question, I doubt these homes were built by people with plentiful resources. They were probably built at a time when they were what would be considered a well built house. Now, they're purchased by people who can't afford anything else.

lucas9000

08-30-2005, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Rather than look for people to blame, try just being sympathetic to the probably hundreds or thousands who died and to the hundreds of thousands who lost their homes.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope this comment about blaming people wasn't directed at me...and i don't think it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't directed at anyone specific. I just know the tendency is to blame people for having done something wrong when this sort of thing happens. Why didn't they get out? Why were they there in the first place?

I guess my point is, having lived in New Orleans for fifteen years, that I understand very well why they were there in the first place and why some of them didn't get out. I certainly don't blame the foolishness of the unfortunate few who were left behind for their fate.

Think about this. Over one million people live in the NO Metro area. There are two main ways out of the city: I-10 and the Causeway (linking to I-12 north of the lake). I simply don't think it's possible to organize and evacuate all million people via those two routes in the two days that NO had notice that this was coming.

Two days notice. Some people are bound to be left behind for one reason or another. And it looks like many of them are now probably dead.

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you make great points. if we avoided living in all places that are vulnerable to natural disasters or extreme weather, well...i can't think of such a place.

08-30-2005, 02:29 PM

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They just declared martial law in SE Louisiana. "There are no more civil rights in the city of New Orleans or SE Louisiana." The central business district was dry last night, but it's flooding now. The water's rising.

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This is the most interesting/scary/f'd up part of this whole story.

You fellas know what martial law is, right?

BruinEric

08-30-2005, 02:30 PM

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There are two main ways out of the city: I-10 and the Causeway (linking to I-12 north of the lake).

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Make that WERE two ways out of the city. Saw on a blog somewhere that the Causeway is destroyed.

I could be wrong. This is not written with the classic OOT snide humorous tone, just adding some news here.

08-30-2005, 02:31 PM

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you make great points. if we avoided living in all places that are vulnerable to natural disasters or extreme weather, well...i can't think of such a place.

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There is a big difference between avoidance and reasonable preparation.

Would you move your wife and kids to an area such as this and then buy a home with the structural integrity of a mobile home?

Why do you think they build homes with big pointed aluminum roofs in the mountains where blizzards are common? It's because they know for a fact it is going to snow and a flat roof will cave in.

If they cannot afford to live there safely and responsibly, they should not be allow to at all.

Are there no 'inexpensive areas to live' in the northern part of the state?

BruinEric

08-30-2005, 02:33 PM

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This is the most interesting/scary/f'd up part of this whole story.

You guys know what martial law is right?

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Saw on a blog that in at least one parish, any pedestrians walking on the street will be arrested, and that 50+ suspected looters have been arrested so far.

tbach24

08-30-2005, 02:34 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
They just declared martial law in SE Louisiana. "There are no more civil rights in the city of New Orleans or SE Louisiana." The central business district was dry last night, but it's flooding now. The water's rising.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the most interesting/scary/f'd up part of this whole story.

You fellas know what martial law is, right?

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No, care to explain?

Matty

08-30-2005, 02:36 PM

Post more.

BruinEric

08-30-2005, 02:38 PM

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If they cannot afford to live there safely and responsibly, they should not be allow to at all.

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I nominate myself as determine-who-is-worthy-to-live-where-they-want czar.

That would work great in NO. No corruption there. First bribe, first served!

If your actual premise is that the government should use more restraint spending recovery money in some select cases where people are repeatedly making some risky choices on taxpayer's dimes, then that might be fair.

You'll see something like this on a newsmagazine show every once in a while -- "guy rebuilds house for 3rd time on beachfront property using FEMA money" or some such.

M2d

08-30-2005, 02:41 PM

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You fellas know what martial law is, right?

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http://www.filmint.nu/bilder/netonly/artikelbilder/filmint2/martiallaw2276.jpg

08-30-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They just declared martial law in SE Louisiana. "There are no more civil rights in the city of New Orleans or SE Louisiana." The central business district was dry last night, but it's flooding now. The water's rising.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the most interesting/scary/f'd up part of this whole story.

You fellas know what martial law is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, care to explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Here you go. (http://www.google.com/search?q=martial+law&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)

Sponger15SB

08-30-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

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You fellas know what martial law is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.filmint.nu/bilder/netonly/artikelbilder/filmint2/martiallaw2276.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey c'mon I already made a joke like this in the other thread!

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3272866&Fo rum=&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3256716&Sea rch=true&where=bodysub&Name=10714&daterange=1&newe rval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=# Post3272866)

JDErickson

08-30-2005, 02:46 PM

Watched an interview this morning of 2 French Canadians on vacation in New Orleans. They were lamenting how they had no water or power in their hotel and how hot it was.

Are people really that dumb? They knew the hurricane was coming and they were told to evacuate but they stay anyway and then bitch about it. sigh

M2d

08-30-2005, 02:48 PM

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Hey c'mon I already made a joke like this in the other thread!

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sorry, man. didn't see it.

Sponger15SB

08-30-2005, 02:50 PM

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Hey c'mon I already made a joke like this in the other thread!

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sorry, man. didn't see it.

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I am just messing with you. Yours is actually better than mine because someone set you up for it.

LethalRose

08-30-2005, 02:50 PM

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Why are people allowed to build homes in these areas that look no different then a house you would see anywhere else in the country?

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I dont think building codes exist that can withstand a cat 5 hurricane. And if you build the entire area out of houses that theoretically could nobody could afford them. Its a question of money, they know its dangerous to live there.

HopeydaFish

08-30-2005, 03:01 PM

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Watched an interview this morning of 2 French Canadians on vacation in New Orleans. They were lamenting how they had no water or power in their hotel and how hot it was.

Are people really that dumb? They knew the hurricane was coming and they were told to evacuate but they stay anyway and then bitch about it. sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

You answered your own question.

These are the same people who wear black socks and sandals to the beach, after all.

HopeydaFish

08-30-2005, 03:08 PM

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Are there no 'inexpensive areas to live' in the northern part of the state?

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Yes, but if their jobs are in the southern half of the state (in New Orleans, or with the oil industry), living in the northern half doesn't make much sense.

A state like Louisiana has a choice -- enforce strict building codes and drive up the housing prices so that no one can afford their own homes, or let people live in "unsafe" homes and cross their fingers that a Katrina-sized hurricane doesn't hit. Unfortunately, driving up housing prices with your policies would be a perfect way of *not* getting re-elected, so you can see why politicians are reluctant to rectify the situation.

It's much easier and safer (politics-wise) to get disaster relief once every 20 years or so when a hurricane blows through than to actually be proactive about the situation.

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 03:47 PM

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There are two main ways out of the city: I-10 and the Causeway (linking to I-12 north of the lake).

[/ QUOTE ]

Make that WERE two ways out of the city. Saw on a blog somewhere that the Causeway is destroyed.

I could be wrong. This is not written with the classic OOT snide humorous tone, just adding some news here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bridge that was widely reported destroyed yesterday was the I-10 bridge east out of the city (across about a six mile stretch of the lake). So yes, I-10 is toasted. I don't know about the Causeway, but I wouldn't be surprised when all is taken into account to find that it too is kaput.

tek

08-30-2005, 03:48 PM

Pentagon devising scenarios for martial law in US
By Patrick Martin
9 August 2005

According to a report published Monday by the Washington Post, the Pentagon has developed its first ever war plans for operations within the continental United States, in which terrorist attacks would be used as the justification for imposing martial law on cities, regions or the entire country.

The front-page article cites sources working at the headquarters of the military’s Northern Command (Northcom), located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The plans themselves are classified, but “officers who drafted the plans” gave details to Post reporter Bradley Graham, who was recently given a tour of Northcom headquarters at Peterson Air Force Base. The article thus appears to be a deliberate leak conducted for the purpose of accustoming the American population to the prospect of military rule.

Military lawyers have studied the legal implications of such deployments, which risk coming into conflict with a longstanding congressional prohibition on the use of the military for domestic policing, known as posse comitatus. Involving the National Guard, which is exempt from posse comitatus, could be one solution, Admiral Keating told the Post. “He cited a potential situation in which Guard units might begin rounding up people while regular forces could not,” Graham wrote.

Graham adds: “when it comes to ground forces possibly taking a lead role in homeland operations, senior Northcom officers remain reluctant to discuss specifics. Keating said such situations, if they arise, probably would be temporary, with lead responsibility passing back to civilian authorities.”

A remarkable phrase: “probably would be temporary.” In other words, the military takeover might not be temporary, and could become permanent!

In his article, Graham describes the Northern Command’s “Combined Intelligence and Fusion Center, which joins military analysts with law enforcement and counterintelligence specialists from such civilian agencies as the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.” The article continues: “A senior supervisor at the facility said the staff there does no intelligence collection, only analysis. He also said the military operates under long-standing rules intended to protect civilian liberties. The rules, for instance, block military access to intelligence information on political dissent or purely criminal activity.”

Again, despite the soothing reassurances about respecting civil liberties, another phrase leaps out: “intelligence information on political dissent.” What right do US intelligence agencies have to collect information on political dissent? Political dissent is not only perfectly legal, but essential to the functioning of a democracy.

The reality is that the military brass is intensely interested in monitoring political dissent because its domestic operations will be directed not against a relative handful of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists—who have not carried out a single operation inside the United States since September 11, 2001—but against the democratic rights of the American people.

The plans of Northcom have their origins not in the terrible events of 9/11, but in longstanding concerns in corporate America about the political stability of the United States. This is a society increasingly polarized between the fabulously wealthy elite at the top, and the vast majority of working people who face an increasingly difficult struggle to survive. The nightmare of the American ruling class is the emergence of a mass movement from below that challenges its political and economic domination.

As for the claims that these military plans are driven by genuine concern over the threat of terrorist attacks, these are belied by the actual conduct of the American ruling elite since 9/11. The Bush administration has done everything possible to suppress any investigation into the circumstances of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—most likely because its own negligence, possibly deliberate, would be exposed.

The anti-terrorism scare has a propaganda purpose: to manipulate the American people and induce the public to accept drastic inroads against democratic rights. As the Pentagon planning suggests, the American working class faces the danger of some form of military-police dictatorship in the United States.

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 03:49 PM

Ed, I hope your friends and family are safe down there. I have a let of relatives in Louisiana and Eastern Texas.

mmbt0ne

08-30-2005, 03:53 PM

wtf are you talking about? Take this [censored] to politics.

sthief09

08-30-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's going on with all the people in the Superdome?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good question. My guess is that they are all being kept inside until the city gives the ok for people to return.

It looked until late last night that that part of the city had escaped flooding. Unfortuantely, I heard a news report at around midnight PDT from a hospital not too far from the Superdome. They said that a levee holding back the lake in the north part of the city (the lake is actually part of the Gulf of Mexico... they just call it a lake because of its shape) had broken, and lake water was now rushing through the city. The woman said water was rising at a rate of an inch every five minutes, and they had six inches of water on the second floor. (FWIW, the lake is heavily polluted, brackish water, so it will corrode anything it touches.)

So that part of the city I guess is flooded as well with lake water as of last night. I'm fairly certain the people in the Superdome will be sitting tight there probably for a week. Be glad you aren't in there...

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry just came to mind

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.

Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.

Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They go no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.

Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.

All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin' about me baby and my happy home.
Going, going to Chicago... Going to Chicago... Sorry but I can't take you...
Going down... going down now... going down....

kipin

08-30-2005, 03:58 PM

http://saintsexcuse.ytmnd.com/

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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There are two main ways out of the city: I-10 and the Causeway (linking to I-12 north of the lake).

[/ QUOTE ]

Make that WERE two ways out of the city. Saw on a blog somewhere that the Causeway is destroyed.

I could be wrong. This is not written with the classic OOT snide humorous tone, just adding some news here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bridge that was widely reported destroyed yesterday was the I-10 bridge east out of the city (across about a six mile stretch of the lake). So yes, I-10 is toasted. I don't know about the Causeway, but I wouldn't be surprised when all is taken into account to find that it too is kaput.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as I wrote this, CNN showed footage of the I-10 bridge. It's completely destroyed.. I've never seen anything like it. It broke off in sections and some submerged and others are displaced up, down, left, and right.

RunDownHouse

08-30-2005, 04:03 PM

These people just never stop. Awesome.

Ed Miller

08-30-2005, 04:10 PM

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Ed, I hope your friends and family are safe down there. I have a let of relatives in Louisiana and Eastern Texas.

[/ QUOTE ]

My parents are fine. My mom was planning to sell her house and move to Vegas within the year. Now there will be no need for selling, and she should be out here in a week or two.

I have friends, some of whom stayed in the city, whose well-being is uncertain.

JaBlue

08-30-2005, 04:18 PM

doesn't she lose a ton of money on the house that got destroyed and she couldn't sell? Or is it covered in insurance?

fsuplayer

08-30-2005, 04:21 PM

i truely hope that someone living in that city has flood insurance.

Los Feliz Slim

08-30-2005, 04:24 PM

Is anyone watching the CNN news conference with the NO mayor? What's the deal with the woman on her left whose face keeps moving as if she's trying to talk along with the mayor? It's freaking me out.

CORed

08-30-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm glad I live where the worst weather I ever get is very rare little baby tornados, hailstorms and blizzards. The worst hailstorm I ever saw is nothing compared to a hurricane.

meep_42

08-30-2005, 04:28 PM

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doesn't she lose a ton of money on the house that got destroyed and she couldn't sell? Or is it covered in insurance?

[/ QUOTE ]

If she had insurance, i'm sure she'll just take the payout and apply it to a new place in Vegas.

-d

wonderwes

08-30-2005, 04:36 PM

Welcome to the dirty dirty south. New Orleans is totally screwed. The city got lucky that the hurricane went 30 miles east of the city. If it hit the city head on, many more buildings would be destroyed.

Now the water has broken the Levy off Lake Pontchartrain (they said the gap was 2 blocks long). Take all the rainfall from all across SE Louisiana and all that fell in Mississippi. So basically from Nachez, MS southward. Now think of all the creeks, small rivers, etc that flow into the Mississippi river. All that basically heads down to the Lake. There is a huge swamp west of Baton Rouge called the Achafalya river. If you drive on I-10, you drive across this straight bridge around 12 miles long. Its just a giant swamp (it was somewhat designed to contain overflow from any part of the Mississippi river). Now they can redirect some of the flood water off the Mississippi river, but most of it will fall into Lake Pontchartrain. So you got New Orleans between the Lake and the Mississippi river.

So all that lake water is flowing into the neighborhoods. A majority of those homes are 20+ years old and made of wood.

Oh yeah, they mentioned on the news a majority of bridges/causeways on the major highways are non passable due to shifting of the roads.

This clean up will take forever.

Barry

08-30-2005, 04:51 PM

My in-laws live in Metarie up by the lake and they all got out of Dodge the other day.

Footage that I saw today showed that it was flooded around the Clearview mall and along Veterans Blvd. It also seemed to be flooded up towards the E Jefferson Hospital. So it's not looking good.

My in-laws are not planning on heading back for another week.

krazyace5

08-30-2005, 05:03 PM

Total evacuation of new orleans was just ordered, their gonna have fun moving all those people in the superdome.

siccjay

08-30-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Total evacuation of new orleans was just ordered, their gonna have fun moving all those people in the superdome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is Noah when you need him?

SL__72

08-30-2005, 05:33 PM

This (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/080304tropicalweathe/im:/050830/480/ladp13008302037;_ylt=Av_wUIl82WdUwnBeY7G_sCRiWscF; _ylu=X3oDMTA3dmhrOGVvBHNlYwNzc20-) will probably slow down that complete evacuation

Nick-Zack

08-30-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How dare you enter complex, reasoned, understanding to a smugly asinine thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy Birthday

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 06:00 PM

In the back of my mind, I am thinking NO is done for, like forever.

BruinEric

08-30-2005, 06:01 PM

Disaster journalism is far better now that blogs have brought us first-person perspectives in addition to large-scale coverage.

One blog worth visiting:
http://dancingwithkatrina.blogspot.com/

M2d

08-30-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think building codes exist that can withstand a cat 5 hurricane. And if you build the entire area out of houses that theoretically could nobody could afford them. Its a question of money, they know its dangerous to live there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the worst case/most glaring example of human stupidity is in the SF delta. people have been moving out there for years as housing prices have risen in the area. Thing is, they move out there so they can live in new 6/4 houses on large lots. then, as the levees break in the winter during the storms (once every two years, at least), they're on the news complaining about their bad luck. well, how about buying a little less house and making it above sea level?

BruinEric

08-30-2005, 06:07 PM

Semi-Live updates from the NO Times-Picayune:

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075193

Includes this disgusting tidbit:

Even a cop joins in the looting
Mike Perlstein and Brian Thevenot
Staff writers

Law enforcement efforts to contain the emergency left by Katrina
slipped into chaos in parts of New Orleans Tuesday with some police officers
and firefighters joining looters in picking stores clean.

===

ligastar

08-30-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the back of my mind, I am thinking NO is done for, like forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

They shouldn't be allowed to rebuild the city. We need to cut our losses on this one.

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the back of my mind, I am thinking NO is done for, like forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

They shouldn't be allowed to rebuild the city. We need to cut our losses on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]Well...I agree...but damn this city is home to close to 500,000 people. I can't even begin to imagine how this is all going to play out. Where are all these people going to go, where will they live, how bad will the damage be, can business relocate or are they done, how many people didn't have insurance???

God, this is bad.

krazyace5

08-30-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the back of my mind, I am thinking NO is done for, like forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

HopeydaFish

08-30-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone watching the CNN news conference with the NO mayor? What's the deal with the woman on her left whose face keeps moving as if she's trying to talk along with the mayor? It's freaking me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see the report you're talking about, but I'm guessing the woman who was freaking you out was doing sign language for the hearing impaired. I've noticed her before in other news conferences from NO...don't all TV stations have closed captioning for the hearing impaired these days?

imported_anacardo

08-30-2005, 06:27 PM

Slacker13

08-30-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well...I agree...but damn this city is home to close to 500,000 people. I can't even begin to imagine how this is all going to play out. Where are all these people going to go, where will they live, how bad will the damage be, can business relocate or are they done, how many people didn't have insurance??

[/ QUOTE ]

Down here in FLA after hurricane andrew 1000's of the people who were directly affected moved away never to be seen again. The ones who stayed to rebuild stayed in "tent city", some for almost a year. It's hard to give up and leave somewhere that you've spent your life building.

This is bad. The city will most likely bounce back, south florida did, but it took 2-3 years before things were back to normal.

08-30-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think building codes exist that can withstand a cat 5 hurricane. And if you build the entire area out of houses that theoretically could nobody could afford them. Its a question of money, they know its dangerous to live there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the worst case/most glaring example of human stupidity is in the SF delta. people have been moving out there for years as housing prices have risen in the area. Thing is, they move out there so they can live in new 6/4 houses on large lots. then, as the levees break in the winter during the storms (once every two years, at least), they're on the news complaining about their bad luck. well, how about buying a little less house and making it above sea level?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you 100% on this one. How developers out there can be allowed to spend billions on development and not one dime to increase the integrity of those levees is beyond me. And we are talking about simple rain that makes them break.

But now place these areas in a hurricane zone.

How exponentially does the stupidity factor go up?

Nobody expects people to build with expectations of a direct blow from a Cat 5. But, if you know the chance exists of one rolling through every few years, it is imo negligence to not to build structures that can withstand a Cat 3 or even 4.

I don't want to hear it is a money issue. I feel the same (confussed) about rich people in Malibu living in wildfire country that do not clear brush from around their property. They watch the fires roll through every year, and every year they problably breathe a big sigh of relief when the fire 'just misses' them. But do they clear the brush? Build a fire line? Prepare for the disastrous event that will hit them sooner or later?? No. It is negligence as well.

Wether it is the homeowners negligence, the city's, the countys, the states...I don't know. But it is negligence all the same and people are dieing as a result of it.

ligastar

08-30-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the back of my mind, I am thinking NO is done for, like forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

They shouldn't be allowed to rebuild the city. We need to cut our losses on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. We can't not have a major port at the mouth of the Mississippi.

[/ QUOTE ]

80% of the city is underwater ... what are you missing. Cross our fingers and hope it doesn't happen again, I don't think so.

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well...I agree...but damn this city is home to close to 500,000 people. I can't even begin to imagine how this is all going to play out. Where are all these people going to go, where will they live, how bad will the damage be, can business relocate or are they done, how many people didn't have insurance??

[/ QUOTE ]

Down here in FLA after hurricane andrew 1000's of the people who were directly affected moved away never to be seen again. The ones who stayed to rebuild stayed in "tent city", some for almost a year. It's hard to give up and leave somewhere that you've spent your life building.

This is bad. The city will most likely bounce back, south florida did, but it took 2-3 years before things were back to normal.

[/ QUOTE ]Did Andrew destroy a major metropolitan area though? IK only ask because I do not remember.

Los Feliz Slim

08-30-2005, 06:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone watching the CNN news conference with the NO mayor? What's the deal with the woman on her left whose face keeps moving as if she's trying to talk along with the mayor? It's freaking me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see the report you're talking about, but I'm guessing the woman who was freaking you out was doing sign language for the hearing impaired. I've noticed her before in other news conferences from NO...don't all TV stations have closed captioning for the hearing impaired these days?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably what she was doing, but they didn't show her hands on CNN...maybe on local TV her hands were visible.

Slacker13

08-30-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here in Florida. Also, it is not an easy decision to just leave your home, you want to protect what is yours.

cwsiggy

08-30-2005, 06:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did Andrew destroy a major metropolitan area though? IK only ask because I do not remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

No - Andrew basically destroyed a tiny community - a trailer park for all intents and puposes. No comparison.

Guthrie

08-30-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You fellas know what martial law is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly they don't, nor does the media.

Slacker13

08-30-2005, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No - Andrew basically destroyed a tiny community - a trailer park for all intents and puposes. No comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you on crack? It wiped out entire towns, fool. It was, up until now, the costliest natural disaster ever in the US.

What part of my post compared two storms. I commented on the mindset of someone who lives in hurricane areas.

Get a life.

cwsiggy

08-30-2005, 06:52 PM

calm down now- I stand corrected.

Smackdab

08-30-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone watching the CNN news conference with the NO mayor? What's the deal with the woman on her left whose face keeps moving as if she's trying to talk along with the mayor? It's freaking me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that was the govenor of LA. The woman with the weird facial expressions is a Senator from LA. Hell, for awhile there I thought it may be the Govenor's Tourette's afflicted daughter.

Slacker13

08-30-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did Andrew destroy a major metropolitan area though? IK only ask because I do not remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
It missed dwntown Miami but hit heavily populated suburbs. Cutler Ridge, Homestead were a few of the cities that were leveled. Damage from that storm extended all the way to Palm Beach. But, compared to this storm and flooding, Katrina is def much worse.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!

08-30-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You fellas know what martial law is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly they don't, nor does the media.

[/ QUOTE ]

as defined by en.wikipedia.org:

"Martial Law is a television show with Sammo Hung and Arsenio Hall."

08-30-2005, 07:03 PM

Los Feliz Slim

08-30-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone watching the CNN news conference with the NO mayor? What's the deal with the woman on her left whose face keeps moving as if she's trying to talk along with the mayor? It's freaking me out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just saw this, it's fairly obvious that she is trying to hold back tears.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought originally, but occasionally she moves to the podium and speaks and seems totally composed.

tommy2

08-30-2005, 07:07 PM

Don't they also bury the dead above ground in NO because of the water table? Jeez, that could be dicey if the coffins get loose.

JDErickson

08-30-2005, 07:24 PM

This can't be good

http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_569_images/083005_KatrinaFlood1.jpg

James Boston

08-30-2005, 08:44 PM

I work for a Classic Rock station. I checked to make sure we didn't have that (When The Levee Breaks) or Rock You Like A Hurricane scheduled to play today.

Blarg

08-30-2005, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You fellas know what martial law is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.filmint.nu/bilder/netonly/artikelbilder/filmint2/martiallaw2276.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Kelly was sooooo hot in that show.

Blarg

08-30-2005, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think building codes exist that can withstand a cat 5 hurricane. And if you build the entire area out of houses that theoretically could nobody could afford them. Its a question of money, they know its dangerous to live there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the worst case/most glaring example of human stupidity is in the SF delta. people have been moving out there for years as housing prices have risen in the area. Thing is, they move out there so they can live in new 6/4 houses on large lots. then, as the levees break in the winter during the storms (once every two years, at least), they're on the news complaining about their bad luck. well, how about buying a little less house and making it above sea level?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you 100% on this one. How developers out there can be allowed to spend billions on development and not one dime to increase the integrity of those levees is beyond me. And we are talking about simple rain that makes them break.

But now place these areas in a hurricane zone.

How exponentially does the stupidity factor go up?

Nobody expects people to build with expectations of a direct blow from a Cat 5. But, if you know the chance exists of one rolling through every few years, it is imo negligence to not to build structures that can withstand a Cat 3 or even 4.

I don't want to hear it is a money issue. I feel the same (confussed) about rich people in Malibu living in wildfire country that do not clear brush from around their property. They watch the fires roll through every year, and every year they problably breathe a big sigh of relief when the fire 'just misses' them. But do they clear the brush? Build a fire line? Prepare for the disastrous event that will hit them sooner or later?? No. It is negligence as well.

Wether it is the homeowners negligence, the city's, the countys, the states...I don't know. But it is negligence all the same and people are dieing as a result of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's one thing when you're talking about building new houses. But many houses were already built long ago.

Blarg

08-30-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here in Florida. Also, it is not an easy decision to just leave your home, you want to protect what is yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, leaving your home is probably losing more or less everything. Most people don't have big bank accounts, or even enough to let them survive a few months comfortably at a hotel. Leaving home would mean giving up everything they have, including, for some of them, the ability to eat very soon.

Blarg

08-30-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't they also bury the dead above ground in NO because of the water table? Jeez, that could be dicey if the coffins get loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully there won't be a zombie outbreak.

imported_anacardo

08-30-2005, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I work for a Classic Rock station. I checked to make sure we didn't have that (When The Levee Breaks) or Rock You Like A Hurricane scheduled to play today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been listening to "When The Levee Breaks" compulsively, actually.

James Boston

08-30-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I work for a Classic Rock station. I checked to make sure we didn't have that (When The Levee Breaks) or Rock You Like A Hurricane scheduled to play today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been listening to "When The Levee Breaks" compulsively, actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had it stuck in my head as well. Still, it would seem really insensitive on our part if it played at the wrong time. Imagine somebody's flipping through radio stations, hears a report on the levee that was breached, changes the station, and we're playing "When The Levee Breaks."

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here in Florida. Also, it is not an easy decision to just leave your home, you want to protect what is yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, leaving your home is probably losing more or less everything. Most people don't have big bank accounts, or even enough to let them survive a few months comfortably at a hotel. Leaving home would mean giving up everything they have, including, for some of them, the ability to eat very soon.

[/ QUOTE ]good post Blarg, I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Slacker13

08-30-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For most people, leaving your home is probably losing more or less everything. Most people don't have big bank accounts, or even enough to let them survive a few months comfortably at a hotel. Leaving home would mean giving up everything they have, including, for some of them, the ability to eat very soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time hurricane andrew was coming I did not have much money. I worked at TGI Fridays and had a few hundred bucks to my name. It was not an option for me to leave. I actually was driving around that night not knowing what the hell i should do.

ThaSaltCracka

08-30-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For most people, leaving your home is probably losing more or less everything. Most people don't have big bank accounts, or even enough to let them survive a few months comfortably at a hotel. Leaving home would mean giving up everything they have, including, for some of them, the ability to eat very soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time hurricane andrew was coming I did not have much money. I worked at TGI Fridays and had a few hundred bucks to my name. It was not an option for me to leave. I actually was driving around that night not knowing what the hell i should do.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to sound like a corn ball, but yours and Blargs posts were excellent in regards to the psychi(sp) of someone living in that area.

08-30-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't they also bury the dead above ground in NO because of the water table? Jeez, that could be dicey if the coffins get loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've reported that coffins have already been spotted floating around. There was also a 3ft. shark sighted somewhere.

-AC

OtisTheMarsupial

08-30-2005, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How come there aren't zoning laws in place that say something to the effect of "if you're going to build here, you need to meet these building standards..."?

[/ QUOTE ]

I come from a family of architecture and city planning, so I'll field this question. One caveat, I haven't read the entire thread. I know, shocking!

The reasons are:
- Historic and old buildings cannot be forced to comply with new standards. It's unfair, sorta ex parte facto.
- In case you don't know, New Orleans is poor! Damn poor. they cannot be expected to build super buildings that are expensive as hell.
- This is the worst disaster ever to happen there. Generally, they plan and prepare for the everyday, not the extraordinary circumstances.
- Creation and enforcement of building codes takes resources. Did you hear me when I said New Orleans is poor?
- There are plenty of people who make money by building and allowing others to build bad homes (this happens in Vegas too). These people have lots of power.

OtisTheMarsupial

08-30-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Would you move your wife and kids to an area such as this and then buy a home with the structural integrity of a mobile home?

Why do you think they build homes with big pointed aluminum roofs in the mountains where blizzards are common? It's because they know for a fact it is going to snow and a flat roof will cave in.

If they cannot afford to live there safely and responsibly, they should not be allow to at all.

Are there no 'inexpensive areas to live' in the northern part of the state?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

You just have no idea. You go tell a bunch of cajuns and poor New Orleanians to move. It's a type of patriotism practically incomprehensible to us who are more self interested.

Besides, NO is a MAJOR resource for the US. it produces oil and is an important port. We need it.

jstnrgrs

08-31-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's going on with all the people in the Superdome?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good question. My guess is that they are all being kept inside until the city gives the ok for people to return.

It looked until late last night that that part of the city had escaped flooding. Unfortuantely, I heard a news report at around midnight PDT from a hospital not too far from the Superdome. They said that a levee holding back the lake in the north part of the city (the lake is actually part of the Gulf of Mexico... they just call it a lake because of its shape) had broken, and lake water was now rushing through the city. The woman said water was rising at a rate of an inch every five minutes, and they had six inches of water on the second floor. (FWIW, the lake is heavily polluted, brackish water, so it will corrode anything it touches.)

So that part of the city I guess is flooded as well with lake water as of last night. I'm fairly certain the people in the Superdome will be sitting tight there probably for a week. Be glad you aren't in there...

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry just came to mind

If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break,
When The Levee Breaks I'll have no place to stay.

Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.

Don't it make you feel bad
When you're tryin' to find your way home,
You don't know which way to go?
If you're goin' down South
They go no work to do,
If you don't know about Chicago.

Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
Now, cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.

All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin' about me baby and my happy home.
Going, going to Chicago... Going to Chicago... Sorry but I can't take you...
Going down... going down now... going down....

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't beileve this just occured to you. I've been singing this song to myself nonstop since Sunday morning.

BruinEric

08-31-2005, 12:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would you move your wife and kids to an area such as this and then buy a home with the structural integrity of a mobile home?

Why do you think they build homes with big pointed aluminum roofs in the mountains where blizzards are common? It's because they know for a fact it is going to snow and a flat roof will cave in.

If they cannot afford to live there safely and responsibly, they should not be allow to at all.

Are there no 'inexpensive areas to live' in the northern part of the state?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

You just have no idea. You go tell a bunch of cajuns and poor New Orleanians to move. It's a type of patriotism practically incomprehensible to us who are more self interested.

Besides, NO is a MAJOR resource for the US. it produces oil and is an important port. We need it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could add that there isn't a major US port connecting the ocean/gulf with the Mississippi river in the northern part of LA.

People historically have built towns near major bodies of water. NO has historically been a major location for trade and a major port because of its location.

Why are NYC and Boston located on or near the water? Los Angeles? Etc.

Think SimCity -- large industries are created/founded around this type of location. Industries like this usually mean people live nearby. People who live nearby often spend their money nearby and create the need for commercial businesses.

Slacker13

08-31-2005, 12:46 AM

I am not a very sensitive guy, I am actually pretty cold at times and i don't want to get mushy with a bunch of people i dont know but I am watching CNBC, who is showing video of Beloxi and I can't help but feel absolutely sick at what i am seeing. This is really effecting me. I want to go there and help or something.

Biloxi is gone, 90% leveled. There is nothing left. CNBC just showed video of a 17 mile section of Biloxi, every home, business, bridges are destroyed. Not one single casino is intact. Houses that were there for 100's of years are gone. People wandering around like zombies with no clue what to do.

Aside from the amount of dead in both the world trade center and the tsunami, which were both horrible disasters I would have to say that this disaster is worse in terms of clean up and destruction. Your looking at years of cleanup. Some of these towns will never be rebuilt. And this was just Beloxi.

I cannot even fathom what these people are going through. This is the first time I have ever seen reporters crying.

Were looking at a potential 1 million refugees.

This is one sad day for the US.

sweetjazz

08-31-2005, 01:27 AM

I have spent the past few days in Jackson MS and Paris TX after evacuating New Orleans. I had just moved back there a week and a half before the storm hit. I left my apartment on Saturday afternoon. I am fortunate that I have my car, my computer, and a week's worth of clothes, as well as a few books (though, unfotunately, none of my 2+2 books).

I probably have lost what is in my apartment, which consists mostly of clothes and books as well as personal items likes photos and diplomas. I didn't have any furniture yet to speak of. (I actually live Uptown where I have heard flooding was minimal to this point, but I expect that the further flooding from the levee breaches is probably washing away anything left that wasn't looted in my first-floor apartment while I post this.)

I guess you could say we in New Orleans have been running real bad this week.

I honestly feel blessed that I was able to be spared from the storm and have what is important to me -- my life, my family, my friends, and the resources to start over again. My heart goes out to those who have lost friends and relatives and to those whose lives will be seriously ruined because of the catastrophe.

For any 2+2ers who resided in the devastated areas or had friends or families that did, my prayers go out to you.

For those who are not in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, I hope you will strongly consider making a financial donation to a charity such as American Red Cross, Catholic Relief Services, etc. You have, no doubt, seen the dramatic images of the devastation that has occurred. Keep in mind all of the things that will be needed even when the water is removed and the power is restored. People have lost their homes, their cars, and their belongings. Please help.

ThaSaltCracka

08-31-2005, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot even fathom what these people are going through. This is the first time I have ever seen reporters crying.

Were looking at a potential 1 million refugees.

This is one sad day for the US.

[/ QUOTE ] Keep them all in your prayers.

garyjacosta

08-31-2005, 01:49 AM

I grew up an hour south of New Orleans and lived in the city itself for 6 years. Over the past few days I have seen the streets I used to live on, the businesses I used to work for, the neigborhoods I have friends in and haven't heard from, all underwater.

I've seen plenty of natural disasters on TV. I've felt the same callused feelings of apathy that most of you have to situations occuring far away from my home. Hell, I don't even live in Louisiana anymore. Moved to Dallas 2 years ago..... But I am an emotional wreck seeing what has happened to the city I love.

I've seen several posts stating that people are stupid for living here because of the danger of hurricanes. The entire gulf coast and eastern seaboard is at risk for hurricanes. It is impossible to run from nature.

I was born in south Louisiana. I am proud of where I am from. I love the rich history of New Orleans. The roots I have there are not unlike most people's religions. You were born into them. That's what you stand behind, you never really questioned it.

Please try to see the human tragedy and suffering that is really going on here. Forget all the Southern sterotypes for a minute and realize that what is happening there is happeneing to real people. People that did not ask for this and had no real warning.

No one got angry at the people in the world trade center in New York for working in a building that had been bombed before and was obviously a target for terrorists. Don't be mad at these poor people for what has tragically happened to them.

I think donations and volunteer help are great suggestions. If you can't give money, donate blood. Every little bit helps.

Get mad at politicians for their politics, be mad at hollywood for their spoiled attitudes..... just don't be hateful towards human beings that have lost everything and have no idea how they are going to get back on their feet again.... it just isn't fair.

MyTurn2Raise

08-31-2005, 02:04 AM

I will move back there and be a part of the rebuilding.
Though I grew up and spent the majority of my life in the Chicago burbs and Champaign, IL, New Orleans is a second home to me.
I spent my summers there when 20 and 21 (quite a growing experience, but those stories are for another time.)
I visit twice a year still.
It's a city full of life (poor wording considering the situation). Nothing compares...the people, the food, the music, the energy. Those that live or lived there all feel the same way.
I will be honored to help rebuild that city when I go back. I feel the urge to rebuild that city. I don't care where it sits in relation to sea level, it cannot and will not be lost.

BruinEric

08-31-2005, 02:10 AM

Get this from the Times-Picayune Breaking News page:

Children's Hospital under seige
Tuesday, 11:45 p.m.

Late Tuesday, Gov. Blanco spokeswoman Denise Bottcher described a disturbing scene unfolding in uptown New Orleans, where looters were trying to break into Children's Hospital.

Bottcher said the director of the hospital fears for the safety of the staff and the 100 kids inside the hospital. The director said the hospital is locked, but that the looters were trying to break in and had gathered outside the facility.

The director has sought help from the police, but, due to rising flood waters, police have not been able to respond.

Bottcher said Blanco has been told of the situation and has informed the National Guard. However, Bottcher said, the National Guard has also been unable to respond.

====

I'm finding it hard to control my nausea and some tears welling in my eyes as I read this. Here's hoping this is just bad/incorrect information being passed around in crisis.

If true, a helicopter gunship or two would be an interesting addition to the rescue operation. The innocent need protection from predators.

Some have asked who wouldn't leave NO when told to evacuate. Well -- aside from sick children and hospital workers, it looks like a good number of those who stuck around are predatory scumbags.

Ironically some of these same vermin will find themselves needing hospital care when they contract the diseases that come from wading around in brackish water mixed with sewage spills, oil spills and carcasses floating about.

May God spare the decent who are left alone to fend off thugs with no help from the authorities. It is times like these that owning a gun would be a necessity. I don't own a gun myself, so don't take this as an NRA-rant.

garyjacosta

08-31-2005, 02:17 AM

I've seen the same reports of looting and it sickens me. The scumbags seem to pose for the cameras in some shots. We've got emergency personnel risking their lives to rescue people, and some indecent human beings are trying to benefit from the disaster. Sad truth is that if you have to steal to get rich, your wealth will be short lived. The few things these people take will soon run out, and they will be in the same dire positions they started in.

ThaSaltCracka

08-31-2005, 02:18 AM

the videos I have seen of the aftermath are amazing in a horrible way.

BruinEric

08-31-2005, 02:22 AM

Conjecture on some other boards is that the pharmacies and hospitals are being raided because many are drug addicts whose supplies/dealers are unavailable.

STLantny

08-31-2005, 02:24 AM

You know what, for all the shortcommings our country as a whole has, one thing I find solace in, is the fact that so many people are expressing thier love for the city they live in. Most disasters that Ive seen and/or read about that happen in other countries, rarely have the commentary from citizens expressing their love for the area affected, but rather they ask for help, wonder why it happened etc. Its different here, and thats one thing that makes things like this much easier to deal with.

garyjacosta

08-31-2005, 02:29 AM

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif New Orleans

TripleH68

08-31-2005, 02:43 AM

I am a meteorologist and news media anger me sometimes with their ignorance of the weather. In this case the whole "New Orleans will be devastated...no wait, they lucked out and it missed them...no wait, maybe they will still be devastated" was embarassing.

Hurricane prediction is amazingly accurate compared to just twenty years ago. Hurricanes have strong winds yes, but people die from storm surge and flooding. The power of water had just put on a display for the globe(tsunami) but now we are seeing this power in the US.

When it comes to evacuation we must think about the elderly and sick. Evacuating is such a major problem for some of these people that it is almost impossible.

If you have questions about hurricanes this is likely your best resource national hurricane center. (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov)

LethalRose

08-31-2005, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am a meteorologist and news media anger me sometimes with their ignorance of the weather. In this case the whole "New Orleans will be devastated...no wait, they lucked out and it missed them...no wait, maybe they will still be devastated" was embarassing.

Hurricane prediction is amazingly accurate compared to just twenty years ago. Hurricanes have strong winds yes, but people die from storm surge and flooding. The power of water had just put on a display for the globe(tsunami) but now we are seeing this power in the US.

When it comes to evacuation we must think about the elderly and sick. Evacuating is such a major problem for some of these people that it is almost impossible.

If you have questions about hurricanes this is likely your best resource national hurricane center. (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov)

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think global warming played a part in how powerful Katrina became after it went west of florida?

TripleH68

08-31-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think global warming played a part in how powerful Katrina became after it went west of florida?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many scientists have warned that global warming/climate change will lead to an increase in the number and intensity of convective storms. This may be happening with hurricanes. Proving it is another story.

In the case of Katrina the strengthening in the gulf of mexico can be attributed to an upper level anti-cyclone and the very warm waters of the gulf. Basically the set up of the jet stream was perfect for developing a major hurricane. Forecasters at the national hurricane center pegged this storm very well Friday night. Here is an excerpt from one of their discussions...

HURRICANE KATRINA DISCUSSION NUMBER 15
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
11 PM EDT FRI AUG 26 2005

THE SATELLITE PRESENTATION HAS CONTINUED TO IMPROVE AND CONSISTS OF
A PERFECT A COMMA-SHAPED CLOUD PATTERN WHICH BEGINS OVER WESTERN
CUBA AND WRAPS AROUND A LARGE CLUSTER OF VERY DEEP CONVECTION. THIS
BAND IS PROBABLY PRODUCING NEAR TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS ALONG
THE NORTH COAST OF WESTERN CUBA. ALTHOUGH THE EYE IS NOT CLEARLY
VISIBLE ON IR IMAGES...RADAR DATA INDICATE THAT THE EYE IS EMBEDDED
WITHIN THIS CIRCULAR AREA OF DEEP CONVECTION. T-NUMBERS FROM SAB
AND TAFB HAVE INCREASED TO 5.0 ON THE DVORAK SCALE. THEREFORE...
THE INITIAL INTENSITY HAS BEEN ADJUSTED TO 90 KNOTS. AN AIR FORCE
RECONNAISSANCE PLANE IS SCHEDULED TO BE IN KATRINA IN THE NEXT FEW
HOURS. THE HURRICANE IS EXPECTED TO BE UNDER A TYPICAL 200 MB
ANTICYLONE...WITH A CYCLONIC CIRCULATION EXTENDING UPWARD TO THAT
LEVEL. THIS IS THE TYPICAL PATTERN OBSERVED IN INTENSE HURRICANES.
IN ADDITION...KATRINA IS FORECAST TO MOVE DIRECTLY OVER THE WARM
LOOP CURRENT OF THE GULF OF MEXICO...WHICH IS LIKE ADDING HIGH
OCTANE FUEL TO THE FIRE. THEREFORE...THE OFFICIAL FORECAST BRINGS
KATRINA TO 115 KNOTS...OR A CATEGORY FOUR ON THE SAFFIR-SIMPSON
HURRICANE SCALE. THE GFDL IS MORE AGGRESSIVE AND CALLS FOR 124
KNOTS AND 922 MB. THE FSU SUPERENSEMBLE IS EVEN MORE AGGRESSIVE
BRINGING KATRINA TO 131 KNOTS.

KATRINA CONTINUES TO MOVE STUBBORNLY TOWARD THE WEST-SOUTHWEST OR
250 DEGREES AT 7 KNOTS ALONG THE EASTERN SIDE OF A VERY STRONG
DEEP-LAYER MEAN HIGH CENTERED OVER TEXAS. IN FACT...DATA FROM THE
NOAA JET JUST RELAYED BY THE METEOROLOGIST ONBOARD INDICATE THAT
THE HIGH CONTINUES TO BE VERY STRONG. HOWEVER...THIS FEATURE IS
EXPECTED TO MOVE WESTWARD AND LEAVE A WEAKNESS OVER THE CENTRAL
GULF OF MEXICO. KATRINA WILL LIKELY TAKE THAT OPPORTUNITY AND
BEGIN TO TURN GRADUALLY TOWARD THE WEST-NORTHWEST AND THEN
NORTHWARD. THE OFFICIAL FORECAST BRINGS THE CORE OF THE INTENSE
HURRICANE OVER THE NORTH CENTRAL GULF OF MEXICO IN 48 HOURS OR SO.
IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT THE GUIDANCE SPREAD HAS DECREASED AND MOST
OF THE RELIABLE NUMERICAL MODEL TRACKS ARE NOW CLUSTERED BETWEEN
THE EASTERN COAST OF LOUISIANA AND THE COAST OF MISSISSIPPI. THIS
CLUSTERING INCREASES THE CONFIDENCE IN THE FORECAST.

08-31-2005, 03:06 AM

I know that many of you have personal reasons to be emotionally attached to this situation and rightfully so. While I have never been to New Orleans and I have not lost anybody in this tragedy, I too feel a sense of loss over what has happened. I think we all do.

For those of us that do not have a personal reason to grieve at this time, it is perfectly reasonable to feel a desire to understand why something like this can happen with a mindful eye on preventing such disaster and loss of life in the future.

It is our responsibility to look for better ways.

Yes, New Orleans has a great history, but it is not as a major metropolitan city, below sea level, endangering it's inhabitants. Much of this city as we know it today was not even in existence until 1910 when "engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used when heavy rains hit the city. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area."

This simple fact of the matter is that New Orleans, in large part, is a flood plain. Plain and simple.

If it is so vital that people inhabit (in mass) this area due to history, or resources, or whatever the reason may be, they had better have something better in place then aging, and for the most part, natural, levees and pumps.

The area was drained in order to expand the city. Drained. Doesn't that seem even the least bit odd to anyone? And even if it doesn't seem odd, if you lived in an area such as this, wouldn't you want to know, or at least feel, safe?

People are dieing there. It sucks. I'm sympathetic. Extremely sympathetic. But very soon, if not immediately, the focus of those of us not searching for loved ones needs to focus on prevention of this type of disaster in the future. It is our duty as Americans, as citizens and as humans.

We (The US) have put a man on the moon, mobilized an entire country to fight and win a two front war and have cured major diseases...

Are you trying to tell me that we cannot build a goddamn levee out of concrete AND tall enough to protect this city?

I'm sorry, but Hurricane Katrina did not devastate this city. Katrina's brunt was felt in Mississippi. Two massive levee breaks are what has destroyed New Orleans. Two massive levee's that should have been built, rebuilt, upgraded or whatever it took to protect the 1.3 MILLION residents of this city.

Negligence and Greed have destroyed it and caused this massive loss of property and life.

And it is all of ours responsibilities to learn and prevent future loss of property and especially life.

MyTurn2Raise

08-31-2005, 03:28 AM

are we going to treat California that way when the 9.0 hits?

garyjacosta

08-31-2005, 03:34 AM

Your arguments against living in New Orleans are for another time. I disagree with your reasons, but I am in no mood to eloquate my position.

It upsets me that some people are holding the opinion that it is unfair that their tax dollars will have to go to helping those who live in an "unsafe area."

Real people have lost real homes and real jobs...... Imagine yourself homeless tomorrow. Imagine people not wanting to help you because you were "stupid enough" to live in a town where every 5 years a tornado, or an earthquake, or a drought, or a blizzard strikes.....

08-31-2005, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your arguments against living in New Orleans are for another time. I disagree with your reasons, but I am in no mood to eloquate my position.

It upsets me that some people are holding the opinion that it is unfair that their tax dollars will have to go to helping those who live in an "unsafe area."

Real people have lost real homes and real jobs...... Imagine yourself homeless tomorrow. Imagine people not wanting to help you because you were "stupid enough" to live in a town where every 5 years a tornado, or an earthquake, or a drought, or a blizzard strikes.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Who mentioned money or tax dollars? My concern is for loss of life.

I'd share with you my contribution today to the Red Cross, but frankly, it's none of your business. And for the record, I'm broke and unemployeed and still donated.

08-31-2005, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
are we going to treat California that way when the 9.0 hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

People here are forced, by way of zoning construction laws, to build 'earthquake safe' structures. Our freeways overpasses are actually connected with expandable 'foam like' connections, built prevent them from falling in the case of an earthquake. Houses are required to be bolted to there foundations. The list goes on and on.

Does it always work? No. But what can be done...is done.

Do you think a concrete levee tall enough to protect the people of New Orleans is a bad thing? Are you scratching your head wonder why 'the dirt didn't hold'?

MyTurn2Raise

08-31-2005, 03:55 AM

I see your point...and my point is they did try--similar to California. The levees, for the most part, held against every storm until now. This storm is stronger than Betsy (40 years ago), which old-timers told me was the strongest they had experienced. A freak occurance.

The big issue is the loss of marsh land made let the storm come in too powerful. It's tough to sell funding for keeping 'swampland'? They were trying though.

Ed Miller

08-31-2005, 04:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't she lose a ton of money on the house that got destroyed and she couldn't sell? Or is it covered in insurance?

[/ QUOTE ]

My mom has flood insurance, though the premiums were something like $5,000 a year. But many in New Orleans don't have flood insurance either because they can't afford the astronomical premiums or because they live in areas so flood-prone that the insurance companies simply won't insure them.

Ed Miller

08-31-2005, 04:13 AM

cbfair

08-31-2005, 04:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does it always work? No. But what can be done...is done.

Do you think a concrete levee tall enough to protect the people of New Orleans is a bad thing? Are you scratching your head wonder why 'the dirt didn't hold'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will not get into this discussion too much here as it really belongs in the politics forum; my real intention is that this sends you looking in a different direction for the answers you seek. People in this thread have demonstrated compassion, and a notable love for this great city.

Here's a quote from the Emergency Management Chief in NO from last year

[ QUOTE ]
It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

-- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to hear how some people are pointing fingers, Read this (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/30/155725/944)

I've only visited NOLA one time and I fell in love, I'm truly concerned that this great american landmark may be forever altered in the coming months and years. One thing that struck me is that every one we met (my wife and I were on our honeymoon) wanted to give us a tour of the city. One guy that we met working in an art gallery told us to leave the touristy quarter and took us out for beers in another part of town (whose name escapes me) which was super cool and populated by great local bars and super genuine people. Our cabbie on the way to the airport talked for the whole drive about the city's history and his family's involvement through generations.

My heart goes out to the people who've lost loved ones in this tragedy and I wish the best for those who've lost their homes and livelyhoods. My company alone has over 200 employees in New Orleans and while I haven't met any of them it spooks me to think they do the same thing as me except now they are homeless with nowhere to go to for several months or more.

wacki

08-31-2005, 04:21 AM

Ed I just want to say I feel bad for you. I know you weren't there, but that's your home town. Also, you have family there. I can't imagine what it would be like if my home town was wiped out.

I wish you and your family the best.

Ed Miller

08-31-2005, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I will move back there and be a part of the rebuilding.
Though I grew up and spent the majority of my life in the Chicago burbs and Champaign, IL, New Orleans is a second home to me.
I spent my summers there when 20 and 21 (quite a growing experience, but those stories are for another time.)
I visit twice a year still.
It's a city full of life (poor wording considering the situation). Nothing compares...the people, the food, the music, the energy. Those that live or lived there all feel the same way.
I will be honored to help rebuild that city when I go back. I feel the urge to rebuild that city. I don't care where it sits in relation to sea level, it cannot and will not be lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been feeling the same way. I haven't lived in New Orleans in ten years, but I feel the same draw to return and rebuild that you describe.

Ed Miller

08-31-2005, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point...and my point is they did try--similar to California. The levees, for the most part, held against every storm until now. This storm is stronger than Betsy (40 years ago), which old-timers told me was the strongest they had experienced. A freak occurance.

The big issue is the loss of marsh land made let the storm come in too powerful. It's tough to sell funding for keeping 'swampland'? They were trying though.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should also be noted that the extensive erosion of coastal lands in SE Louisiana is largely due to the construction of the levee system. The regular river floods that are supposed to deposit silt were eliminated by the levees. As a result, the silt ended up in the lake and gulf instead of building new land.

Frankly, the Army Corps of Engineers has been playing a dangerous game for the past fifty years trying to keep the Mississippi from changing course down the Atchafalya Basin and trying to keep water out of the city.

I'm not condemning them at all... what they did for New Orleans up to this point saved the city a lot of grief.

The bottom line is that people were simply crossing their fingers hoping that this wouldn't happen in our lifetimes. It did. For me, it still hasn't really sunk in. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

wacki

08-31-2005, 05:01 AM

Hey Ed. Here is an article you might find interesting. It even comes up with an interesting solution to all of New Orleans problems.

CIVIL ENGINEERING MAGAZINE
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html

Dave G.

08-31-2005, 05:33 AM

The story of those looters absolutely sickens me. I can't believe what animals some people are at a time like this. I wonder if you'd get in trouble for firing on them with a rifle. I'd be so emotional and outraged if I were involved in this that I probably wouldn't hesitate.

Anyway, I'm far away from it, but I certainly feel for those who got caught up in it. My best wishes to anyone who has been affected by this tragedy.

diebitter

08-31-2005, 05:35 AM

Im presuming to speak for the UK. Our thoughts and best wishes are with all those affected.

Slacker13

08-31-2005, 10:00 AM

During hurricane andrew there was massive looting also. I doubt that any city in country wouldn't experience the same thing in a disaster. I just don't want to see it distract from the problem at hand. It will get ugly when the looters move to residential neighborhoods.
I remember a picture after hurricane andrew showing a little girl, maybe 9 years old sitting in a lawn chair holding a machine gun while her dad was sifting through their belongings, a sign behind her said "You Loot, We Shoot".

Broken Glass Can

08-31-2005, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
During hurricane andrew there was massive looting also.

[/ QUOTE ]

We must blame the national guard for this. They let Iraqis loot Baghdad in 2003, remember. All soldiers are evil.

(just wanted to insert the anti-war activist position, in the interest of a full and fair discussion /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

jakethebake

08-31-2005, 10:18 AM

That is a very good avatar, siccjay.

mmbt0ne

08-31-2005, 10:30 AM

Nothing really new to add about New Orleans, but I was walking through the Student Center today and they had a big registration table set up for Tulane. Apparently some of the student body has been moved to GT for the next few months. Good for Tech.

Both my parents went to Tulane, and my grandfather taught there for a while, so I'm glad my school is doing something to help the victims out.

TheTROLL

08-31-2005, 10:33 AM

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4199350.stm) report.
"I can only imagine that this is what Hiroshima looked like 60 years ago," said Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour after viewing the destruction from the air.

No, that would have been substantially different, you stupid, stupid fool.

Patrick del Poker Grande

08-31-2005, 10:35 AM

beernutz

08-31-2005, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Warning: politically incorrect statement to follow...

They were screwed the minute they decided to live in a fuking flooded swamp. But hey, they had 200 years of fun /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

while we're being politically incorrect, i hope the people who didn't evacuate and are now crying for someone to save them had a damn good reason for not leaving when told to do so before.

[/ QUOTE ]

For many of them: No money, no car, and one million people in line in front of them with money and a car to get out of the city.

To be fair, it's only about a five mile walk from many of these neighborhoods to the Superdome. Once it became clear that they couldn't get out, they could have sucked it up and walked to the Superdome. I'm sure many did.

But more importantly, I don't think you understand the context of this. New Orleaneans are asked to evacuate for a hurricane maybe once every year or two. Every one so far for the last forty years has missed. There's a serious crying wolf effect. (Not that the evacuation orders in past years were imprudent, mind you.)

You're in your house with three kids and elderly grandparents five miles from nowhere safe with no car and no cash. You're told, "get the hell out," just like you've been told twenty times before. Some people are going to make the wrong decision. I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, they died (or almost died) because they were too dumb to evacuate." There's just more to it than that.

Bottom line is this is a disaster that no one deserved (though it's hard to say that anything in life is really deserved). Rather than look for people to blame, try just being sympathetic to the probably hundreds or thousands who died and to the hundreds of thousands who lost their homes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Ed for finally posting something knowledgeable and intelligent in this thread.

beernutz

08-31-2005, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Watched an interview this morning of 2 French Canadians on vacation in New Orleans. They were lamenting how they had no water or power in their hotel and how hot it was.

Are people really that dumb? They knew the hurricane was coming and they were told to evacuate but they stay anyway and then bitch about it. sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't possibly be this stupid and yet still know how to use a computer can you?

Your Mom

08-31-2005, 10:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it always work? No. But what can be done...is done.

Do you think a concrete levee tall enough to protect the people of New Orleans is a bad thing? Are you scratching your head wonder why 'the dirt didn't hold'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will not get into this discussion too much here as it really belongs in the politics forum; my real intention is that this sends you looking in a different direction for the answers you seek. People in this thread have demonstrated compassion, and a notable love for this great city.

Here's a quote from the Emergency Management Chief in NO from last year

[ QUOTE ]
It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

-- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to hear how some people are pointing fingers, Read this (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/30/155725/944)

I've only visited NOLA one time and I fell in love, I'm truly concerned that this great american landmark may be forever altered in the coming months and years. One thing that struck me is that every one we met (my wife and I were on our honeymoon) wanted to give us a tour of the city. One guy that we met working in an art gallery told us to leave the touristy quarter and took us out for beers in another part of town (whose name escapes me) which was super cool and populated by great local bars and super genuine people. Our cabbie on the way to the airport talked for the whole drive about the city's history and his family's involvement through generations.

My heart goes out to the people who've lost loved ones in this tragedy and I wish the best for those who've lost their homes and livelyhoods. My company alone has over 200 employees in New Orleans and while I haven't met any of them it spooks me to think they do the same thing as me except now they are homeless with nowhere to go to for several months or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blaming the federal govt? OK, but where's the blame on local govt.'s then?

08-31-2005, 10:59 AM

TheTROLL

08-31-2005, 11:11 AM

Erm, I can only assume you haven't seen the ones of Hiroshima. The comparison is stupid and offensive.

ThaSaltCracka

08-31-2005, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Erm, I can only assume you haven't seen the ones of Hiroshima. The comparison is stupid and offensive.

[/ QUOTE ]The comparison is a tad short sighted, but I can see similarities. I think perhaps you should see the vidoes of MS gulf coast, then you would see the similarities in destruction.

djoyce003

08-31-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The story of those looters absolutely sickens me. I can't believe what animals some people are at a time like this. I wonder if you'd get in trouble for firing on them with a rifle. I'd be so emotional and outraged if I were involved in this that I probably wouldn't hesitate.

Anyway, I'm far away from it, but I certainly feel for those who got caught up in it. My best wishes to anyone who has been affected by this tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally people oughta just shoot the looters. You are going to be tried by a jury of people from NO...think they'll convict...i highly doubt it.

Sponger15SB

08-31-2005, 11:37 AM

Ok there is a crazy guy right now on Fox News being interviewed who sounds like that guy from Joe Dirt. That was good stuff.

"you like to see [censored]'s naked? well thats cool I guess"

malo

08-31-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4199350.stm) report.
"I can only imagine that this is what Hiroshima looked like 60 years ago," said Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour after viewing the destruction from the air.

No, that would have been substantially different, you stupid, stupid fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

The analogy is poor......Hiroshima was a totally different kind of disaster. But this man is probably so overwhelmed right now, I'll cut him some slack for a poor analogy.

Just like Hiroshima, New Orleans has sustained damage that is near total destruction. Whatever is left standing after the waters recede will probably have to be torn down and rebuilt.

It's gonna take years to recover.....

TheTROLL

08-31-2005, 12:23 PM

Fair enough - I have seen the pictures, and it is a horrible mess. But Hiroshima got it a touch worse, irrespective of the superficial similarities, and a politician ought to know better than to invoke that awful scene, ever.

bugstud

08-31-2005, 12:24 PM

astarck

08-31-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is not a freak occurance. The fact that a cat 1 went to a cat 5 just between florida and LA means that these will continue to occur in similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a freak occurance at all. This is what happens when a small hurricane goes over undisturbed 90 degree waters for an extended period of time.

EDIT - The gulf was warm this year and the air masses were ripe for hurricane development.

Rick Nebiolo

08-31-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ed I just want to say I feel bad for you. I know you weren't there, but that's your home town. Also, you have family there. I can't imagine what it would be like if my home town was wiped out.

I wish you and your family the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this.

Wacki - thanks for posting the Civil Engineering link elsewhere in the thread.

~ Rick

JDErickson

08-31-2005, 02:21 PM

My favorite quote so far; regarding the looting

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Franklin stood on the trolley tracks and watched the spectacle unfold.

"To be honest with you, people who are oppressed all their lives, man, it's an opportunity to get back at society," he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

ligastar

08-31-2005, 03:12 PM

A Colonel of the Corps of Engineers on CNN just said it would take 3 to 6 months to pump the water out ... WTF?

Like I said earlier let's chalk this up as a learning experience and cut bait. Those that said we need a port there then fine ... a port and NOTHING else.

I've been to Mardi Gras once and liked NO just fine but rational minds need to win this debate.

08-31-2005, 03:32 PM

djoyce003

08-31-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The story of those looters absolutely sickens me. I can't believe what animals some people are at a time like this. I wonder if you'd get in trouble for firing on them with a rifle. I'd be so emotional and outraged if I were involved in this that I probably wouldn't hesitate.

Anyway, I'm far away from it, but I certainly feel for those who got caught up in it. My best wishes to anyone who has been affected by this tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally people oughta just shoot the looters. You are going to be tried by a jury of people from NO...think they'll convict...i highly doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid...

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. People that rob people who have just lost virtually everything they own are the lowest form of life. It offends me they are allowed to breathe air, and I wouldn't convict someone that shot every single one of them in the back of the head. Did you hear about the looters breaking into the children's hospital? Why wouldn't you shoot them in the back of the head?

HopeydaFish

08-31-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is not a freak occurance. The fact that a cat 1 went to a cat 5 just between florida and LA means that these will continue to occur in similar fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a freak occurance at all. This is what happens when a small hurricane goes over undisturbed 90 degree waters for an extended period of time.

EDIT - The gulf was warm this year and the air masses were ripe for hurricane development.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, people are questioning whether there will be another Cat 5 hurricane going through the Gulf in the future...however, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another Cat 4 or 5 going through *this year*. Just think of all the hurricanes that went through Florida last year...it was like a conveyor belt...and this year the water is even warmer.

partygirluk

08-31-2005, 03:39 PM

I haven't been following this as closely as it merits - but am upset at the apparent number of fatalities. Bewildered also - weren't everyone in New Orleans given plenty of notice to evacuate the city? Why did people stay? Were they trying to show how ballsy they were? Did they have nowhere to go? If so, why didn't the authorities provide enough accommadation?

08-31-2005, 03:44 PM

I could swear a guy on CNN just said that computer models predict that 250,000 to 300,000 people stayed behind and that 1/3 of them have drowned. Holy crap. I sure hope I heard that wrong.

ThaSaltCracka

08-31-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't been following this as closely as it merits - but am upset at the apparent number of fatalities. Bewildered also - weren't everyone in New Orleans given plenty of notice to evacuate the city? Why did people stay? Were they trying to show how ballsy they were? Did they have nowhere to go? If so, why didn't the authorities provide enough accommadation?

[/ QUOTE ]Read through this whole thread, you will find the answers to your questions.

Hiding

08-31-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People that rob people who have just lost virtually everything they own are the lowest form of life. It offends me they are allowed to breathe air, and I wouldn't convict someone that shot every single one of them in the back of the head. Did you hear about the looters breaking into the children's hospital? Why wouldn't you shoot them in the back of the head?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd shoot the people taking diapers, food and water? How do you know the break in at the children's hospital wasn't for insulin for someones kid?
I understand being upset at stealing LCD TV's and things like that, but those items are meaningless in NO right now. Some people are stealing for survival, some for profit. I think there is a serious distinction between the two.

Sponger15SB

08-31-2005, 04:00 PM

Is anyone watching Shepard Smith on Fox News?

Does it seem like he really cares or that hes just trying to make good news? I can't really tell.

08-31-2005, 04:12 PM

N.O. is definitely safe from terrorism. No one will blow up a city that is already screwed. I think they should just surrender the city to the sea and move to higher ground.

Patrick del Poker Grande

08-31-2005, 04:28 PM

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Is anyone watching Shepard Smith on Fox News?

Does it seem like he really cares or that hes just trying to make good news? I can't really tell.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's definitely where he is for good news, but I do think he genuinely cares.

ligastar

08-31-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
N.O. is definitely safe from terrorism. No one will blow up a city that is already screwed. I think they should just surrender the city to the sea and move to higher ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

MyTurn2Raise

08-31-2005, 05:01 PM

Shepard Smith DEFINITELY cares. He's from the area. It's hit him personally. I noticed that he was trying to draw attention to an area that the national guard/ city officials were not adequetely addressing.

MyTurn2Raise

08-31-2005, 05:06 PM

I heard that guy on CNN too that said 250,000 to 300,000 stayed behind and 1/3 of them have drowned.
Seems high.
I'm sure many stayed behind. I lived down there and hurricane warnings are always taken with a dose of skepticism. However, the few hours before, when it became clear how bad it might be, lots of people I knew bolted. These are not the type of people I expected to leave.

New Orleans is a little less than half a million. The gulf coast area down there is a little over a million. If 80% evacuated...that leaves 200,000 in the area. If 1/3 drowned, I'd think we would have heard more about it by now. But it wouldn't suprise me if 1/10 drowned.~20,000 maybe. Not good.

fsuplayer

08-31-2005, 05:18 PM

unfortunately, I think it might be like the tsunami where it was quite low at first in comparison to the final total bc the whole area was flooded.

garyjacosta

08-31-2005, 06:47 PM

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personally people oughta just shoot the looters. You are going to be tried by a jury of people from NO...think they'll convict...i highly doubt it.

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Only problem with this idea is that they will shoot back. Gang violence was a problem before the storm. I can only imagine the roving bands of thugs that now have free run of the city. Of course with no stores open and no electricity, the money and goods they steal have little value in the city.

Victor

08-31-2005, 07:04 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
The story of those looters absolutely sickens me. I can't believe what animals some people are at a time like this. I wonder if you'd get in trouble for firing on them with a rifle. I'd be so emotional and outraged if I were involved in this that I probably wouldn't hesitate.

Anyway, I'm far away from it, but I certainly feel for those who got caught up in it. My best wishes to anyone who has been affected by this tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]

personally people oughta just shoot the looters. You are going to be tried by a jury of people from NO...think they'll convict...i highly doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really dont get it. you realize these people have been stranded with no clean water, little and lessening food and supplies (diapers, meds etc) and you are advocating to shoot them. it has been 3 days, ppl are getting super desperate for supplies to serve BASIC needs.

now you are gonna come back and say that they were told to leave so they deserve what they get. well, many people had no means of leaving or anyplace to go. also, they are warned yearly and probably did not realize this was gonna be the real thing.