KK in monsorous pot...

[Akimka]

No reads on opponents. Unfortunately...

Fold it on turn? I thought I can chase my 2 outs...
River fold - reasonable or not appropriate?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (21 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP3 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 23 BB

[Nick Royale]

I would have called the river...

[peterchi]

To call the turn, it can't be solely on the basis of hoping to catch one of two outs. You need to have at least some small belief that your hand actually might be good.

Thus, once you call the turn, you can't fold the river for one bet.

If you really need to fold this, I'd do it on the turn. But I wouldn't do it without a strong enough read to be almost completely certain that I'm beat.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have called the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

[Akimka]

I feel sick for now /images/graemlins/frown.gif
But that SB comes alive on turn - that's very strange - I put him on possible straight/set and on river I thought I can't win on overcall - I must beat not only possible str8/set but other player who was agressive all the time with AA possibly...

But I feel sick about my desicion - I can lose alot with this fold...

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, once you call the turn, you can't fold the river for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are cases when you should call the turn when you don't have the odds to draw, even if you're planning to fold the river UI to a bet. With this pot, this is not one of them.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
But that SB comes alive on turn - that's very strange

[/ QUOTE ]
You should put more emphasis at the bolded part. It's a reason to call. Why isn't he check/raising with a straight? Something doesn't add up.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]

There are cases when you should call the turn when you don't have the odds to draw, even if you're planning to fold the river UI to a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I think I agree with this, however, I can't think of an example. Can you give me one?

I agree with others, if you call the turn you must call the river. While the flop action is frightening, there's no raising going on on fourth street or the river. That leads me to want to call down. The only way I can see folding the river here after calling 4th is if the sb bets and then it's raised/reraised before it gets to you. Your hand will be good often enough (BB has QQ, for instance, MP3 has a diamond draw and SB has AJ) that you need to call this down.

[Nick Royale]

I'm going to try to find a great post on the subject, I think by Kurosh. I think it was a daily hand post, I'll post a link if I find. But in general it's the chance you hit your draw combined with the chance villain checks the turn (for example giving up on a bluff) for you to take a free sd that makes this type of play possible. When he bets you might not have the odds to call, but since there's chance of egtting a free sd calling the turn might be profitable. In other words, you don't think he'll bet the river with a worse hand, but think he might have betted (or raised) turn with a worse hand.

In the original post OP's hand is too strong and the pot is too big, so you have to call.

[kurosh]

I don't make those kind of posts. I believe it was Nate The Great.

[sthief09]

I'd wait for the turn to pop it


if you knew they were normal and not manaics, the river might be a fold. it's about 50/50 vs the BB (mainly QQ vs AA, but throw in JJ, TT, and others), and the SB just called and called on the flop and led the turn. only a complete retard would do that with one pair, though maybe it's a pair and draw like A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ:spade or JT. that makes sense. so you need to be good 4%. you beat BB half the time so make that 8%. do you beat the unknown SB 8% of the time? probably. a straight doesn't make much sense since he'd checkraise often. a set might play that way and so could 2 pair. still, 8% isn't much

[thejameser]

bad river fold IMO.