Pot sized bet overused in NL poker?

[trumpman84]

When reading comments on NL hands, I often see "You should've bet the pot on the flop etc.

In most situations I think of, a 1/2 - 3/4 sized bet seems to be appropriate and is the size I'm more comfortable using.

If you raise with big cards, miss and want to make a continuation bet - 1/2 pot is normally right to get the best odds on your bet (only has to take it down 1 out of every 3 times)

If you raise with a big hand and do not improve on the flop, it seems a 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet would cose you less chips for those times you meet a lot of resistance and have to let it go.

If you flop a big hand that has redraws or is not vulnerable to the next card off, you could bet 1/2 - 3/4 instead of the whole pot. The smaller bet will make people more willing to call you with almost dead hands or make a play at you.

If on the turn, you have a marginal or big hand and you think your opponent is on a draw that will beat your hand if it gets there, 3/4 of the pot is enough to give him incorrect odds on his draw, but enough to make him maybe want to draw incorrectly. You don't want people to fold their draws, you want them to make incorrect calls. If you overbet the pot to make them fold, you are making them play correctly. If you bet 3/4, they may call only getting 2.5/1 thinking they have implied odds, but you can kill those by folding if their draw comes. Also, it's a smaller bet so you can get away from your marginal hands easier if your read of a draw is wrong.

The only times I really use pot sized bets is when I have the nuts or near nuts and I think my opponent has a very strong hand also, or if I flop a monster on a draw heavy board QQ on a QJ9 with two suits for example.

I just don't like too much of a bet in when a raise would really be really bad for me or I would hate to put in a full pot bet with a monster and have everyone fold when a 1/2 - 3/4 could of possibly got someone to come along with a dead hand or gotten someone to make a play at me.

Thoughts?

Where do you find such suggestions ? I basically agree that a potsized bet is the right thing when you don't want much action. If you are 90% sure that you have the best hand now, but also 90% sure that someone has a strong draw...

I definetly see people using the "bet pot button" too much and I find it very annoying. Although it is a huge clue as to thier skill of poker playing!

buffro
patexashold-em.com

here is the greatest reason for using 1/2 pot bets or SMALLER. Usually... if you're a descent player, you are either WAY ahead (TPTK vs TPrag) or WAY behind (TPTK vs set). In both instances you want callers and/or raisers; not folders. Pot size bets don't allow your oppenent to make mistakes (I call it reverse value betting when someone bets the whole pot).

Let's say you have AK on a K 10 7 board and you bet the pot... KJ/K9/A-10 should insta-fold... mean-while, 77 is licking his chops (P.S. If you run into QJ... oh well). Pot size bets are for ammatures, bots, and fans of the WPT.

[djoyce003]

you couldn't be more wrong. As long as the board is rainbow and drawless its ok to bet small...for instance AA on a 2 7 Q rainbow flop. If there are flush draws and straight draws possible then betting half the pot is giving your opponent reasonably good odds to call....as long as you are going to pay off if he hits, which most people do. Betting full pot gives him pretty terrible odds, and lots of these guys will call full pot bets on draws....you make lots of money when they do this....always betting half pot as a default line is bad poker. If you think the average donk at party will fold K2 on a KQ4 board then you are giving them too much credit.

[Socko669]

I agree. The whole theory behind pot size bets is typically to price out another players draw. Of course, there are many players who will draw at any price, but that is irrelevant in the long term. I see a lot of players making pot size bets as bluff bets, especially on an online site has a bet the pot feature (which i hate as well). In many circumstances a 1/2 or 3/4 pot size bet may still be enough to give the villain the right price on a draw, especially if there are other people in the pot and implied odds come into play.

[Rotterdaum]

With only one other opponent and one draw on the table and a good hand, you want to entice him to call you. If there is only one draw and only one opponent 1) it's unlikely he's on it 2) it's unlikely that he will hit.

With more than one opponent or more than one draw on the table, you want to bet bigger, pot size or even more if you think your hand is good at the moment. If there are 3-4+ people in the pot, betting half pot won't cut a lot of them and you'll have a much greater chance of being beat. Plus if one calls, the rest will be getting progressively better pot odds.

I think all bet sizes, from neglectable to gargantuan find common practice in the game in appropriate situations

[ QUOTE ]
here is the greatest reason for using 1/2 pot bets or SMALLER. Usually... if you're a descent player, you are either WAY ahead (TPTK vs TPrag) or WAY behind (TPTK vs set). In both instances you want callers and/or raisers; not folders. Pot size bets don't allow your oppenent to make mistakes (I call it reverse value betting when someone bets the whole pot).

Let's say you have AK on a K 10 7 board and you bet the pot... KJ/K9/A-10 should insta-fold... mean-while, 77 is licking his chops (P.S. If you run into QJ... oh well). Pot size bets are for ammatures, bots, and fans of the WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention people with top pair playing against a potential flush draw.

But how often does that happen?

[gomberg]

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I think all bet sizes, from neglectable to gargantuan find common practice in the game in appropriate situations

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what a good NL player would say. Figure out your most +EV play and do it. Bet the most they will call incorrectly or bet more to get them off a hand that beats yours, or bet less to induce a raise, or make a bad call that they wouldn't have otherwise if you bet larger. Just balance some information hiding if you need to. There is no default bet size. I've been in many situations where I min-raise to push in overbet the pot 4x with many different hands. That's the art to the game.

Induce your opponents to make mistakes...

[trumpman84]

I agree with most of the responses, but the biggest mistake I see from NL players is if they have AQ or something on a Q high board on the turn and they think their opponent is on a flush draw, they will often bet the pot or overbet the pot by a large margin. Any decent player here of course is going to fold their draw getting very bad odds. Most inexperienced players will think they have accomplished their goal in getting the other player to fold their draw.

But wait....the object of poker is to get your opponent to make incorrect decisions. If you bet the pot or more than the pot, and they fold their draw, which a lot of players do, you made them play correctly by folding their draw...they are no longer making wrong decisions. Not to mention the times you bet your top pair $50 into a $25 pot to get your opponent to "fold his draw" then you get raised.......ooops.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise with big cards, miss and want to make a continuation bet - 1/2 pot is normally right to get the best odds on your bet (only has to take it down 1 out of every 3 times)

If you raise with a big hand and do not improve on the flop, it seems a 1/2 - 3/4 pot sized bet would cose you less chips for those times you meet a lot of resistance and have to let it go.
...
The only times I really use pot sized bets is when I have the nuts or near nuts and I think my opponent has a very strong hand also, or if I flop a monster on a draw heavy board QQ on a QJ9 with two suits for example.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if I play against you, I can always tell how good your hand is by how much you bet? You don't see the drawback to that?

[trumpman84]

No, because 80% of my bets range from 1/2 the pot to 3/4 the pot. If I miss, I bet 1/2-3/4, if I hit I bet 1/2-3/4 but for different reasons.

[Jimbo]

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If you bet the pot or more than the pot, and they fold their draw, which a lot of players do, you made them play correctly by folding their draw...they are no longer making wrong decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. I think you are the inexperienced N/L player here. Why would you bet an amount where they are correct to call with a draw? You either want them to fold their draw hands or call getting incorrect odds. You cannot have it both ways.

[bobbyi]

Let me try explaining this differently.

You say that:
[ QUOTE ]
The only times I really use pot sized bets is when I have the nuts or near nuts and I think my opponent has a very strong hand also, or if I flop a monster on a draw heavy board QQ on a QJ9 with two suits for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Therefore, if I am playing against you once I figure out how you play, I will know that whenever you bet pot, you have a very strong hand. You have completely defined your hand for me with your bet. Giving away your hand like that is very bad especially when you have the "near nuts" or "monster" because you really want to get paid off, and you won't. It should be clear that this is not an optimal situation. You can't let your opponents know you have a monster and they will know that if you only bet pot with monsters. There are two possibly solutions to this:
1) Bet smaller with monsters/ nuts.
2) Bet larger sometimes with other hands.

The first approach sucks because on the draw-heavy board, you price them in with a draw, and even when your hand is invulnerable, you don't make as much money from a second-best hand by betting less. So most people choose to take option two. They bet pot with more than just the monsters that actually justify it so that their play is balanced and their opponent can't easily put them on a hand. This is why other people are betting pot a lot and you aren't.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
here is the greatest reason for using 1/2 pot bets or SMALLER. Usually... if you're a descent player, you are either WAY ahead (TPTK vs TPrag) or WAY behind (TPTK vs set). In both instances you want callers and/or raisers; not folders. Pot size bets don't allow your oppenent to make mistakes (I call it reverse value betting when someone bets the whole pot).

Let's say you have AK on a K 10 7 board and you bet the pot... KJ/K9/A-10 should insta-fold... mean-while, 77 is licking his chops (P.S. If you run into QJ... oh well). Pot size bets are for ammatures, bots, and fans of the WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's no wonder you're down so much money.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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If on the turn, you have a marginal or big hand and you think your opponent is on a draw that will beat your hand if it gets there, 3/4 of the pot is enough to give him incorrect odds on his draw, but enough to make him maybe want to draw incorrectly. You don't want people to fold their draws, you want them to make incorrect calls. If you overbet the pot to make them fold, you are making them play correctly. If you bet 3/4, they may call only getting 2.5/1 thinking they have implied odds, but you can kill those by folding if their draw comes. Also, it's a smaller bet so you can get away from your marginal hands easier if your read of a draw is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

This, of course, assumes that you are capable of actually folding if they make their draw and that your opponent will fold correctly if you bet more than 3/4 pot.

[diebitter]

Either vary your bet based on suggestions below or always bet exactly the same (either 1/2 or 3/4 pot). The latter will usually give opponents bad odds for draws (unless there's a few in) and make your hand unreadable WRT your bet size.

You can randomise based on:
1) Nature of hand
2) a fixed betting pattern based on where the second hand of your watch is

Example:
1) Bet nut flushes/straights the following way:
min-raise 0-10 second, 1/2 pot 10-30 second, 3/4 pot 30-50 seconds, x1 pot 50-60 seconds
2) Bet monsters
min-raise 0-5 seconds, 1/2 pot 5-15 seconds, 3/4 pot 15-40 seconds, x1 pot 40-60 seconds

and so on for TPTK, gutshots etc etc. Find the numbers that best suit you, I just came up with some off the top of my head here.

This makes it pretty hard to put you on anything based on your hand in any game.

[djoyce003]

First let me qualify for all readers so that they don't mistakenly take trumpman's advice. He doesn't post on the SSNL forum and if he posted this crap there he'd get slammed.

Now on to reducing his analysis to a bloody pulp.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with most of the responses, but the biggest mistake I see from NL players is if they have AQ or something on a Q high board on the turn and they think their opponent is on a flush draw, they will often bet the pot or overbet the pot by a large margin. Any decent player here of course is going to fold their draw getting very bad odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) you don't see overbets of the pot very often.
2) Most DONKEYS will call the pot sized bet. Yes a DECENT player won't, but do you want to give a good player odds to draw out on you, I don't. Take the pot now from the good player, let the donkey pay the price to draw because he will. Do you realize that it's incorrect to call the 1/2 pot bet for immediate odds, but might very well be ok for implied odds? Calling 1/2 pot is wrong, calling full pot is more wrong, which would you rather have your opponent do?

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention the times you bet your top pair $50 into a $25 pot to get your opponent to "fold his draw" then you get raised.......ooops.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are doing this you are a moron.

[trumpman84]

The whole point of this post is "pot control" and protecting your stack when you have no hand or a marginal hand and pricing the donkeys in (but not enough where they are getting correct odds to draw) when you have a strong hand. I don't see how this could be wrong.

I think the strength of my play comes from the fact that my continuation bets and my strong hand bets look very similar in that they are both 1/2-3/4 of the pot yet I have people saying that I am giving away my hand with my bet sizes, and most people just generally don't agree, so I'll stop posting in this thread and go on playing the way that suits me best.

And yes...I do post in the SSNL forums. That's why I have 250 posts. I don't post very often but I read them a lot...try finding some of my posts.

[djoyce003]

out of curiosity how do you handle this.

100 NL.

You and villain both have 100.
You raise to 5 preflop with AKo in position and get one caller.

flop comes A 7 2, 2 diamonds, you don't have one in your hand. Pot is $11 on the flop. You bet $5.5 (1/2) pot. Villain calls.

Turn ($22) 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Villain checks. You?

Lets say you bet 1/2 pot again here, now villain raises you....what do you do. If you bet the $11, villain called $5 on the flop to win $16+11 or $27 getting greater than 5-1 odds his call was right. If you call this raise you further improved his odds to make this call.

Lets say you check behind then.

river ($22) blank.

Now villain leads $10. Do you call, if so again, your half pot bet gave him the right odds to draw.

Now change these up your flop bet and make it pot sized. You lead $11, villain calls $11. Pot is at $33 when the diamond falls.....if it goes check/check and he leads small at the river, his odds were wrong even after he hit his hand......you essentially make him have to make a full pot sized river bet for his call to be OK on the flop, which most villains won't make because they want to value bet for $5 or $10....do you see why the PSB is very powerful on a drawing board? You aren't even giving them decent implied odds, whereas if you bet half the pot, you are giving them fairly easy to hit implied odds?

[ QUOTE ]
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If you bet the pot or more than the pot, and they fold their draw, which a lot of players do, you made them play correctly by folding their draw...they are no longer making wrong decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. I think you are the inexperienced N/L player here. Why would you bet an amount where they are correct to call with a draw? You either want them to fold their draw hands or call getting incorrect odds. You cannot have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think either of these comments are particularly true. If you knew how your opponents would react, then the correct amount to bet would be the maximum amount that they would call with incorrect odds. This puts the smallest amount of a correct bet (in terms of protecting your hand) the amount that would enable an opponent to call correctly.

If the maximum size of a bet that an opponent can call correctly is represented by m, the maximum size of a bet the opponent will call is c, your bet is b, and the size of the pot is p, then the following rules apply:
1. If c > m, you will always be making a mistake if b <= m or b > c.
2. If c > m, you will always be correct if m < b <= c. The percentage of your correctness is measured by n = (b-m)/(c-m). You are more correct as n approaches 1.
3. If c <= m, you can never make a correct bet that the opponent will call.

Note the the size of the pot, p, has nothing to do with the correctness of your bet. The fact is that betting so that b = p is the easiest way to give one opponent exactly 2:1 odds on her call, which is insufficient odds for most draws.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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If you bet the pot or more than the pot, and they fold their draw, which a lot of players do, you made them play correctly by folding their draw...they are no longer making wrong decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. I think you are the inexperienced N/L player here. Why would you bet an amount where they are correct to call with a draw? You either want them to fold their draw hands or call getting incorrect odds. You cannot have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think either of these comments are particularly true. If you knew how your opponents would react, then the correct amount to bet would be the maximum amount that they would call with incorrect odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF this hand were played in a vacuum, your statement would be true, but poker is a series of hands. In order to provide "cover" for times when you miss the flop, but want to make a continuation bet, it is advisable to bet less than your opponent might call, but still more than is correct for him to call in order to disguise your continuation bets.

If you always bet the max you thought your opponent would call when you hit the flop you would also have to bet this higher amount when you miss or opponent over time could deduce whether you hit the flop or not based on how you bet. If you do bet this higher amount when you miss you are potentially risking more money than necessary and cutting down on your pot odds when you make a continuation bet. This is covered well in HOH vol. 1.

Of course, another option is to never bluff at the flop when you miss...