40% stealers

[helpmeout]

I am wondering how to adjust to these sorts of players.

Just recently I had A8o on the button MR 40% is CO and raises is this a 3bet?

Similar situation I am SB he is button I have QTo in the past I have cold called here sometimes. Should I be more inclined to 3bet (assume loose passive BB)

What about a button raise you are in BB with say K9o or QTo do you 3bet or just call? Since the guy is stealing at 40% does this mean you should be playing back at him as he could have 75s or such.

Thanks

[New001]

I steal at just under 34%, and I certainly am not doing it with 75s. That extra 6% really doesn't stretch to too many bad hands. Hands like QTo can't really be that good, especially coldcalling out of the SB.

Whether I 3-bet or call out of the BB really depends on the player and how I'm feeling. I mix that up a lot.

I'd 3-bet your A8o hand and fold the QTo in your examples.

[Jeff W]

I 3-bet QTo in the SB. I think folding is incorrect and for that extra SB buys me bluffing outs+gives me a better chance of isolating Button.

I need a legitimate hand to 3-bet in the BB. I want to check-raise a lot to balance my positional disadvantage. I lose that option when I 3-bet.

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet QTo in the SB. I think folding is incorrect and for that extra SB buys me bluffing outs+gives me a better chance of isolating Button.

I need a legitimate hand to 3-bet in the BB. I want to check-raise a lot to balance my positional disadvantage. I lose that option when I 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this...I like 3betting hands like qto and qj because if you pair you are probably best, if neither of you pairs you will usually win, and if an A or K comes off then you can usually avoid seeing a turn vs an unpaired opponent who isnt terrible. Also makes the hand easier to play postflop.

-Mike

[sthief09]

3-betting loose raisers is a huge supply of money. 40% of a lot of hands

[adamstewart]

I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[MarkD]

To everyone who want's to 3-bet these guys out of position with weak hands like QTo do you really expect them to fold on the flop enough for this to be profitable when you both miss? Aren't these guys going to play back at you a lot in these situations and therfor make you make really hard decisions with Q high (or something similar like 9Ts and now you have Ten high).

Example:
Button open raises and he is 38/20/2 with an ASB of 40%. (This is the guy we are talking about right?) We have QTo in the SB and 3-bet and BB folds and button calls.

Flop is K73 two suited or rainbow. We bet out and he raises... what is our plan?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
To everyone who want's to 3-bet these guys out of position with weak hands like QTo do you really expect them to fold on the flop enough for this to be profitable when you both miss? Aren't these guys going to play back at you a lot in these situations and therfor make you make really hard decisions with Q high (or something similar like 9Ts and now you have Ten high).

Example:
Button open raises and he is 38/20/2 with an ASB of 40%. (This is the guy we are talking about right?) We have QTo in the SB and 3-bet and BB folds and button calls.

Flop is K73 two suited or rainbow. We bet out and he raises... what is our plan?

[/ QUOTE ]


fold. most hands like this (and K high) I 3-bet from the SB I'm firing until they fold. most people behave pretty well. if not then it's less profitable to do it. I think you're really just banking on them folding enough. but then again you'll hit your hand sometimes and that should help bridge the gap

[MAxx]

i've been folding KTo, QJo, and QTo in the SB vs these "Loose Stealers". i knew I couldnt call in the SB with them, and they just didnt feel strong enough. I will now officially look to 3bet em. I'm about a 38% stealer myself so I think you have to be careful to not forget that these stealers will have hands some and out flop you some. Plus they may play well with position postflop.

On the plus side if I try and steal with K9 (as a loose steeler) , and you 3bet me out of the SB with QTo.....you will take the pot down more than I do... unless you overdo it and I catch on quickly.

[sthief09]

I thnk you can call there if the BB is average or worst. letting a TAG in is a bad idea

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[MarkD]

I'm open to suggestions so will try this out. I've been kicking it around in my head for awhile. Most of the time I stove these things it comes up ~50% for both sides so I'm getting a small overlay due to the blinds and the iniative I get from 3-betting.

So you would fire on the turn and again on the river in the example I posted?

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you referring to here Sthief? You say you abandoned this but isn't this exactly what you are advocating a few posts up? (3-betting our marginal hands against an overly agressive stealer.)

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Pretty good, I think. I'm still over 2 BB/100 at 10/20 SH after 50,000 hands. (However, my winrate is still fluctuating greatly between 2.8 and 2.1).


Any specific stats you want me to check out on my PT?


Adam

[sthief09]

nah just curious

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I thnk you can call there if the BB is average or worst. letting a TAG in is a bad idea

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely agree with your second sentence. i am not real sure about the first sentence. I don't really like giving the bb good 5-1 odds to call. I don't really like putting 1.5 SBs here with 0 momentum and lots of pressure to catch something on the flop. I'd rather get it heads up and have the momentum and fold equity and not hand out good odds to the BB to catch something and have to fight the extra set of cards. I don't know what is the benefit of calling from SB? I suppose a cheaper investment up front, but i think you end up check folding the flop significantly more.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet QTo in the SB. I think folding is incorrect and for that extra SB buys me bluffing outs+gives me a better chance of isolating Button.

I need a legitimate hand to 3-bet in the BB. I want to check-raise a lot to balance my positional disadvantage. I lose that option when I 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

jeff, this pretty much sums up my blind play. so why do i lose boatloads in the blinds?

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering how to adjust to these sorts of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are good postflop or in these types of battles......I'd say you should seriously consider a table or seat change. I believe they are realizeing more of their god given positional advantage, and not letting you as much leeway as a more passive player would grant you.

I think it would be much less profitable in the blinds if you compared playing against these stealers than other stealers.....even if you improve your strategey.

[sthief09]

letting soemoen in from the BB is not so bad. pot odds do not define the situation properly. most of his hands will face reverse implied odds. Q5o might have a "profitable" call based on pot odds since it'll hold up 17% of the time 3 way but it's a crap ahnd and he'll lose loads of money with it.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you referring to here Sthief? You say you abandoned this but isn't this exactly what you are advocating a few posts up? (3-betting our marginal hands against an overly agressive stealer.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still curious what you are referring to here sthief.

For reference I'm playing somewhere around 25/19/2+ with an ASB of about 33 (all of these are from memory and could be wrong). I am folding my sb something lik 75% and my BB about 45%

For refernce I am not 3-betting QTo, A5o, K9o, etc. from the button vs an agressive stealer, nor am I 3-betting these from the SB.

So, above you advocate 3-betting from the SB with QTo, but you say to adam that you aren't 3-betting with those hands. I think I'm just missing something but these situations have been on my mind a lot lately so I'm looking at this thread very closely.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you referring to here Sthief? You say you abandoned this but isn't this exactly what you are advocating a few posts up? (3-betting our marginal hands against an overly agressive stealer.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still curious what you are referring to here sthief.

For reference I'm playing somewhere around 25/19/2+ with an ASB of about 33 (all of these are from memory and could be wrong). I am folding my sb something lik 75% and my BB about 45%

For refernce I am not 3-betting QTo, A5o, K9o, etc. from the button vs an agressive stealer, nor am I 3-betting these from the SB.

So, above you advocate 3-betting from the SB with QTo, but you say to adam that you aren't 3-betting with those hands. I think I'm just missing something but these situations have been on my mind a lot lately so I'm looking at this thread very closely.

[/ QUOTE ]


no I was just wondering how the LAGgier style is working for him. I was playing 31/23 for a while, stealing 42% but despite winning I decided it wasn't optimal for me.

my stats now are almost idential to yours, though I'm tighter against steals because I'm still not confident in my ability in those spots yet

I'd 3-bet those hands from the SB. 75 fold sb to steal is low. if you're not 3-betting those I wonder which hands you are. do you call a lot? it's starting to appear to me that semi-coldcalling is often the best play

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a 40% stealer /images/graemlins/grin.gif (Actually, 39.39%).


When I'm faced with a 40% stealer, though, it's very important to re-raise with marginally good hands (A5o, K9o, ). When I'm unsure, I don't mind calling to see the flop.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]


how have you been doing with that? I abandoned the really loose aggressive thing a while ago because I didn't feel it was optimal for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you referring to here Sthief? You say you abandoned this but isn't this exactly what you are advocating a few posts up? (3-betting our marginal hands against an overly agressive stealer.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still curious what you are referring to here sthief.

For reference I'm playing somewhere around 25/19/2+ with an ASB of about 33 (all of these are from memory and could be wrong). I am folding my sb something lik 75% and my BB about 45%

For refernce I am not 3-betting QTo, A5o, K9o, etc. from the button vs an agressive stealer, nor am I 3-betting these from the SB.

So, above you advocate 3-betting from the SB with QTo, but you say to adam that you aren't 3-betting with those hands. I think I'm just missing something but these situations have been on my mind a lot lately so I'm looking at this thread very closely.

[/ QUOTE ]


no I was just wondering how the LAGgier style is working for him. I was playing 31/23 for a while, stealing 42% but despite winning I decided it wasn't optimal for me.

my stats now are almost idential to yours, though I'm tighter against steals because I'm still not confident in my ability in those spots yet

I'd 3-bet those hands from the SB. 75 fold sb to steal is low. if you're not 3-betting those I wonder which hands you are. do you call a lot? it's starting to appear to me that semi-coldcalling is often the best play

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not positive on my blind numbers since I am work and can't look at them. I have been cold calling more from the small blind though. From what positions is FSB affected I wonder? If UTG opens and I call is my percentge affected? MP? Just CO and button?

Anyways, I have been cold calling from the SB with hands like 22-55 as well as 78s type of hands. Although after I say that I hate seeing it in writing because I might not be doing that. I am not fully conscious about what range of hands I am playing form the small blind. I guess I haven't really thought about it at all lately. I know that I'm playing it very situationally depending on my opponent (and of course, my mood). I know that I have been semi-cold calling more lately though.

My other numbers: 25/19/2+ are accurate though and that's what I have migrated too. In the past couple of days I have been tightening up slightly but that may be just a factor of cards. I believe this is my natural style.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
letting soemoen in from the BB is not so bad. pot odds do not define the situation properly. most of his hands will face reverse implied odds. Q5o might have a "profitable" call based on pot odds since it'll hold up 17% of the time 3 way but it's a crap ahnd and he'll lose loads of money with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been wondering about this play (cold-calling in the SB to let in a weak BB). It seems like the momentum and subsequent fold equity you get from three-betting outweighs letting a donkey in with a somewhat worse hand (like Q5 vs your KJo in the sb).

When you let the awful BB in, you change the complexion of the hand completely. No longer can you push a steal raiser off a weak hand when you both miss, you've got a donkey in the middle calling to hit his overcard or gutshot.

In these situations where you let in the BB, do you just play your hand honestly, betting and raising when you flop a pair or draw, ck/folding otherwise? Help me figure this out. I'm still puzzled by most good players' cold-calls.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
letting soemoen in from the BB is not so bad. pot odds do not define the situation properly. most of his hands will face reverse implied odds. Q5o might have a "profitable" call based on pot odds since it'll hold up 17% of the time 3 way but it's a crap ahnd and he'll lose loads of money with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been wondering about this play (cold-calling in the SB to let in a weak BB). It seems like the momentum and subsequent fold equity you get from three-betting outweighs letting a donkey in with a somewhat worse hand (like Q5 vs your KJo in the sb).

When you let the awful BB in, you change the complexion of the hand completely. No longer can you push a steal raiser off a weak hand when you both miss, you've got a donkey in the middle calling to hit his overcard or gutshot.

In these situations where you let in the BB, do you just play your hand honestly, betting and raising when you flop a pair or draw, ck/folding otherwise? Help me figure this out. I'm still puzzled by most good players' cold-calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, here's an example.

You are the SB with 9Ts and a semi-good button player open raises who is slightly too loose in these steal spots. The BB is a weak player who likes to overcall. Your hand is too good to simply fold but may be more profitable if you let the BB stay in the hand instead of 3-betting him out.

Change the 9Ts to 44 and it's the same idea. I'm not saying that cold calling with either of these hands is the perfect play but I do it (I am 3-betting more often with the 9Ts then I am with the 44).

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I have been cold calling from the SB with hands like 22-55 as well as 78s type of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds pretty nasty to me. Why do you think it is a good idea to call a raise out of the SB with 78s from an LP player and BB. And if I was going in with a hand like 55 or 44... I still like the 3bet route better. I mean you aren't getting good set value, so therefore if you are playing them at least partially for there pair value. I'd much rather put in an extra bet pf to eliminate another couple of overcards and get some fold equity/momentum with my flop bet. Otherwise you are hoping to checkraise many flops your way, and leading turns...

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Change the 9Ts to 44 and it's the same idea. I'm not saying that cold calling with either of these hands is the perfect play but I do it (I am 3-betting more often with the 9Ts then I am with the 44).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wut? Man, I missed that lesson. I take 44 and 3bet it and take t9s and put it in the muck.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Wut? Man, I missed that lesson. I take 44 and 3bet it and take t9s and put it in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on 44, but T9s seems like a good enough hand to cold call:

equity (%)
34% { T9s }
38% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q6s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
28% { random }

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I have been cold calling from the SB with hands like 22-55 as well as 78s type of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds pretty nasty to me. Why do you think it is a good idea to call a raise out of the SB with 78s from an LP player and BB. And if I was going in with a hand like 55 or 44... I still like the 3bet route better. I mean you aren't getting good set value, so therefore if you are playing them at least partially for there pair value. I'd much rather put in an extra bet pf to eliminate another couple of overcards and get some fold equity/momentum with my flop bet. Otherwise you are hoping to checkraise many flops your way, and leading turns...

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said earlier, I'm not sure that I am playing that 78s there. It's weird because it's unclear in my own mind here. This is because I'm currently experimenting with different things from the small blind.

I also think there is plenty of value in just calling with small pairs pre-flop instead of 3-betting and bloating the pot. I get to see the flop and figure what I do. Small pairs are strong enough for me to do this.

I'm not saying this is right but I have been doing it lately and it's been good for me. If I 3-bet pre-flop I think we often put in too many bets post-flop with that hand - at least I do.

I'm totally experimenting with Sb play lately though so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Change the 9Ts to 44 and it's the same idea. I'm not saying that cold calling with either of these hands is the perfect play but I do it (I am 3-betting more often with the 9Ts then I am with the 44).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wut? Man, I missed that lesson. I take 44 and 3bet it and take t9s and put it in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never going to fold T9s here in the SB. I will 3-bet it or cold call with it. I think folding is wrong.

I don't play small pairs as strongly pre-flop as some of you do. I don't understand the problem with calling 22-44 instead of 3-betting with them.

[MAxx]

well i dont really know what to say.... I think I usually default to SB play facing a steal as a fold or reraise scenario. I rairly call in the SB when facing a steal raise.

My thinking which could be flawed severely, i don't know, is that I am not getting very good odds to draw to anything... and I don't really want to offer up 5-1 odds to BB. I usually want to play big hands hard heads up or rep big hands and get folds. Not really a good time to be playing the drawing hands from a pot odds perspective. Now if I was in the BB with 5-1 odds with T9s or 43s...I'm easily calling.

I'd like to learn superior strategy or maybe get my thinking adjusted... but I've been under the mentallity that SB is not really a good place to play grab ass in.

Coldcalling T9s from SB has not occured to me as I am getting at best 3 to 1 with a medium suited connector out of position. I'm just trying to get a handle on why that is a solid play. I admit I'd probably 3bet JTs, which isn't far off in relative hand strengths. Calling out of the SB just hasn't registered with me jet versus a steal raise.

I just think with small pocket pairs, which are only a small favorite vs overcards preflop do better heads up unimproved vs 1 player than 2. Not too mention the 3 bet will get you some folds that you wont get otherwise. Set odds arent there at 4.5 to 1.5 or 3 to one. You wont make up the bets with implied odds on a set. Therefore, you are counting on taking down unimproved a good part of the time... right?

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
well i dont really know what to say.... I think I usually default to SB play facing a steal as a fold or reraise scenario. I rairly call in the SB when facing a steal raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly do too. I'm not advocating calling with these hands - I'm just saying that it's what I do sometimes and I feel comfortable with it. I look at it in terms of equity - we have a lot with a hand like 9Ts.

I'm not going to say this play is right. It's not a fixture in my style atm, but I've been playing with cold calling from the small blind in different spots lately. I think there are spots where it is ok.

[ QUOTE ]
Coldcalling T9s from SB has not occured to me as I am getting at best 3 to 1 with a medium suited connector out of position. I'm just trying to get a handle on why that is a solid play. I admit I'd probably 3bet JTs, which isn't far off in relative hand strengths. Calling out of the SB just hasn't registered with me jet versus a steal raise.


[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I look at it in terms of equity and hand strength. I like 9Ts here. I will often 3-bet with it but I think a case can be made for calling.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think with small pocket pairs, which are only a small favorite vs overcards preflop do better heads up unimproved vs 1 player than 2. Not too mention the 3 bet will get you some folds that you wont get otherwise. Set odds arent there at 4.5 to 1.5 or 3 to one. You wont make up the bets with implied odds on a set. Therefore, you are counting on taking down unimproved a good part of the time... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be right. I'm not going to argue for calling - 3-betting / folding is typically the best play with most hands from the small blind and it's what I mainly do. I haven't been cold-calling very much from the SB so that's maybe why I have a tough time defending the play.

I'll pay more attention in the my future sessions of what I am doing here.