Theory Quiz (Limit Holdem)

Assume 3 opponents (limit holdem cash game) (each of equal chipstacks) in each of the following cases:

What two hole cards are BEST to have with the following flops?

1) 5s 7c 9s
2) As Kc Qh
3) 7s 7c 8s
4) Ks Qc 8c
5) 5s 8c 9s

How do your answers change if you are heads up instead up against 3 players???

I realize a lot of these are easy but it may spark some interesting discussion about the differences of HU vs. multi-way draws.

[KidPokerX]

easy but i'll answer this one for you.

1. 6s8s
2. TsJs
3. 7h7d
4. KcKd
5. 6s7s

[RocketManJames]

1) 5s 7c 9s: 68s
2) As Kc Qh: JTs
3) 7s 7c 8s: 88
4) Ks Qc 8c: KK
5) 5s 8c 9s: 67s

I'm really not sure if I'd want a different hand on any of these if it were heads up instead of multi-way.

-RMJ

[ QUOTE ]
1) 5s 7c 9s: 68s
2) As Kc Qh: JTs
3) 7s 7c 8s: 88
4) Ks Qc 8c: KK
5) 5s 8c 9s: 67s

I'm really not sure if I'd want a different hand on any of these if it were heads up instead of multi-way.

-RMJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand three you think a full house is better than quads?

[PokerFink]

Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[RocketManJames]

[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

-RMJ

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not 78 then, that way we can't be drawing dead

[SumZero]

1. 6s 8s
2. Jh Th
3. 7h 7d
4. Kc Kh
5. 6s 7s

I'd take the same hands against 3 players as headsup.

[Kaeser]

Because with 7,8 it's less likely an opponent will have a seven. How could we be drawing dead with pocket 8's on that flop?

[starbits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not 78 then, that way we can't be drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

That would eliminate quad 7s, but would still be dead to 88.

starbits

[Guernica4000]

[ QUOTE ]
easy but i'll answer this one for you.

1. 6s8s
2. TsJs
3. 7h7d
4. KcKd
5. 6s7s

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed

[ QUOTE ]
1) 5s 7c 9s: 68s
2) As Kc Qh: JTs
3) 7s 7c 8s: 88
4) Ks Qc 8c: KK
5) 5s 8c 9s: 67s

I'm really not sure if I'd want a different hand on any of these if it were heads up instead of multi-way.

-RMJ

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking I'd much rather have a drawing hand like JT on the K Q 8 board in multi-way limit.

If I'm heads up, clearly, KK is better.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not 78 then, that way we can't be drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

That would eliminate quad 7s, but would still be dead to 88.


[/ QUOTE ]

wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not 78 then, that way we can't be drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

That would eliminate quad 7s, but would still be dead to 88.

starbits

[/ QUOTE ]

You have one of the 8's, with only one 7 and 2 8s left in the deck there's no way someone could have quads over your full at this point. The only things left to fear are the straight flush draw from someone with a hand like 5s6s or 9sTs or a high pocket pair matching the board to beat your full - or drawing runner runner for 4 of a kind. Which basically means there's almost nothing to fear as you'll win enough of the times to make almost any play with this hand in this spot reasonable.

[starbits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full house is more likely to get action, since villian could have a seven and be drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not 78 then, that way we can't be drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

That would eliminate quad 7s, but would still be dead to 88.

starbits

[/ QUOTE ]

You have one of the 8's, with only one 7 and 2 8s left in the deck there's no way someone could have quads over your full at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. dead was the wrong word. Point was 88 gives a full house 8s over 7s beating 7s over 8s.

[ QUOTE ]
Which basically means there's almost nothing to fear as you'll win enough of the times to make almost any play with this hand in this spot reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be thrilled with any of these hands with this flop.

Starbits

[KidPokerX]

I would hope not. I would hope that you'd much rather have KK than a drawing hand - especially since the board can pair (giving you a FH), or your set holding up much more often than hitting one of your 8 known outs.
I'd most surely have KK

Haven't looked at any of the other answers yet, and you haven't mentioned anything about position, but those thoughts aside I like:

[ QUOTE ]

1) 5s 7c 9s
5) 5s 8c 9s


[/ QUOTE ]

8s6s and 7s6s respectively, but again, how many circumstances are you actually going to play these from?

[ QUOTE ]

2) As Kc Qh


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely JsTs.

[ QUOTE ]

3) 7s 7c 8s


[/ QUOTE ]

88 or any remaining 7-8 combination.

[ QUOTE ]

4) Ks Qc 8c


[/ QUOTE ]

Any KK, QQ or 88, followed closely by AcKc.

[ QUOTE ]

How do your answers change if you are heads up instead up against 3 players???


[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope the answers wouldn't change too much with respect to the amount of players. The only thing that might change is how you would play them.

Against multiple players, you could value bet the nuts or near nuts on the flop and probably expect at least one call, if not a raise.

Against a single player, you might have to slow play the flop in order to keep you opponent on the hook for the turn and river bets.

To really discuss more, you need to make some assumptions about position, types of opponents, etc.

Yeah you're probably right. I can always boat-up.

[ QUOTE ]

1) 5s 7c 9s


[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone feel that, against 3 opponents, holding AsQs here would be better? Against 3 opponents, you should be given very good odds to chase the NF. Sure, you don't have the straight, but you've got two overs and the nut flush draw leaving the Ks out there for anyone holding KX of spades to pay you off.

Is there any difference, if, on the river, the structure is suddenly changed to NL? Holding 68s here will surely probably win you more in the long run than AQs, but say if the river could be a NL betting structure, would any of you change your answer to AsQs? I probably would.

Imagine calling down against multiple opponents, and hitting the nut flush on the river, and just pushing all in. High probability that 1 person calls. Of course this game would s*ck for people playing top two, etc. Interesting thoughts though from everyone. This is something I practice when I play 1 or 2 tables at a time. Look at each flop and try to determine what the BEST TWO CARDS to be holding are. It's good practice.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1) 5s 7c 9s


[/ QUOTE ]

Does anyone feel that, against 3 opponents, holding AsQs here would be better? Against 3 opponents, you should be given very good odds to chase the NF. Sure, you don't have the straight, but you've got two overs and the nut flush draw leaving the Ks out there for anyone holding KX of spades to pay you off.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point in a limit game with many runners.

Of course a 4-flush is roughly 2:1 to hit if you stay to the river and all your outs are good.

But those odds are reduced quite a bit if some of those outs are dead.

Personally, if given a choice, I would rather flop the nuts and have people chasing. Although as you say, with the nut flush draw you would typically be getting sufficient odds for the call. The point to remember is that you may still be playing from behind.

Are you going to chase to the river every time with AsQs?

[ QUOTE ]

Imagine calling down against multiple opponents, and hitting the nut flush on the river, and just pushing all in. High probability that 1 person calls. Of course this game would s*ck for people playing top two, etc. Interesting thoughts though from everyone. This is something I practice when I play 1 or 2 tables at a time. Look at each flop and try to determine what the BEST TWO CARDS to be holding are. It's good practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems pretty straightforward. Choose the highest of:
High Straight flush
4 of a kind
High Flush
High Straight w/ high Flush draw
High 3 of a kind

It seems like you need to work pretty hard to make things interesting. Consider
3c 4c 5s
Now, your obvious choice would be 6c 7c for the high straight and inside straight flush draw, but Ac 2c also gives an 'inside' straight flush draw, and a stronger flush draw because of the ace, but weaker straight flush and straight draws. However, since the flush is not that likely, especially against another hand capable of drawing a flush (where the ace would make a difference), this case is also pretty clear.

I'm still waiting for the story about a 4-way pot with
1: QdQh
2: JdJh
3: As Ks
4: 9s 8s

Board:
Jc Ts Qs Js Qc