20-40 live bb check up

[mike l.]

full game 20-40 live game. Q6o in the bb. random fish limps, sb part fish/part reasonable calls (i dont know too much about his aggression level, ive seen him c/r draws on the flop and ive seen him check-call w/ big top pair no kicker, so basically he's fairly random), i check.

the flop is 862 w/ two spades, i have no spades. sb bets, i raise, fish folds, sb calls.

turn is Ac. he checks, i bet.

river is 7s. he checks, i check.

standard or spewage?

[DpR]

Seems standard to me.

[Michael Davis]

I fold the flop.

-Michael

[daryn]

perfection

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, this seems crazy to me and I am very interested in your thought process Micheal.

What approximate range of hands do you put SB on when he leads this flop?


Mike L., I play it the same against the kind of player you described.

[mike l.]

change it to five players seeing the flop. do you still fold?

[Gabe]

Probably a hand that has him beat at least half the time, and a straight draw or flush draw with a card or two bigger than a 6, the other half.

[geormiet]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this count as a strategy post?

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably a hand that has him beat at least half the time, and a straight draw or flush draw with a card or two bigger than a 6, the other half.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about 33-55? These holdings seem very likely to me in addition to the hands you mentioned.

Also a hand like 76, 69s, 65, 64 seem like reasonable hands to put him on since he just completed the SB and is a loose player. A2s as well.

[Lawrence Ng]

I'd just call the flop, raise the turn if he bets, and then bet the river no matter what falls.
























HAHAHAHAHAH..... who the [censored] am I kidding.

Your play is standard Mike, post something harder please.

Lawrence

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
How about 33-55? These holdings seem very likely to me in addition to the hands you mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands did I mention?

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mike,

Many players are learing to strike first out of the blinds when up against two opponents when the board comes small or the board has a lot of air (e.g., K 7 2 rainbow is a flop with a lot of air). Because of this trend your raise acting second is OK since you have middle pair with a decent overcard.

OTOH, keep in mind you are fighting over a very small pot and you should expect some huge swings. Also note if you fold some of the time here you will win more often when you do play aggro.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
change it to five players seeing the flop. do you still fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll pretend to be lmd given I'd like 35 more years of life expectancy.

Bigger pot but the SB leading into five players is far more likely to be a hand that has you beat plus your raise is far less likely to remove all opponents. I think lmd was busting your nuts half way (my guess is he thinks it is close) but I'm relatively sure he is more likely to fold in the second scenario.

That said, if I was the SB with your holding and this board I'd lead into five or two opponents. I'd also get to the river against a mike l. raise. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, this seems crazy to me....

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling it crazy seems like a stretch. I seriously doubt that folding is a huge sacrifice of +EV given that our equity might not be so great to begin with and the pot is a whopping 3 SBs.

That being said, if you are going to play the hand you should do what mike did.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my default as well. If I have a read on SB as the type to bet out with overcards or a draw, then I play it just as you did mike.

[mike l.]

"Bigger pot but the SB leading into five players is far more likely to be a hand that has you beat"

here's where i always seem to disagree with, well, all of you: the misconception you have that our opponents are really thinking when they play. if he had a super strong hand he'd try to checkraise. is he dumb enough to bet a weak hand into 5 player? weak draw? a dominated hand? a hand with reverse implied odds, a hand with other concepts attached to it he doesnt understand and has never heard of and never will? of course he is! that doesnt mean he might not have my 6 beat but please stop pretending these typical bad live game fish think like sensible educated players. it's like the same problem jim brier had with "typical" utg raising standards

[vmacosta]

I think Mike's kicker is too big too play any other way. Turn the Q into a 3 and then I consider folding. Nice hand.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
"Bigger pot but the SB leading into five players is far more likely to be a hand that has you beat"

here's where i always seem to disagree with, well, all of you: the misconception you have that our opponents are really thinking when they play. if he had a super strong hand he'd try to checkraise. is he dumb enough to bet a weak hand into 5 player? weak draw? a dominated hand? a hand with reverse implied odds, a hand with other concepts attached to it he doesnt understand and has never heard of and never will? of course he is! that doesnt mean he might not have my 6 beat but please stop pretending these typical bad live game fish think like sensible educated players. it's like the same problem jim brier had with "typical" utg raising standards

[/ QUOTE ]

I recently played my first live session in a couple years in the 40 game at Bay 101 and, WOW, mike is so dead on here. It is rather shocking going from online play to live play and IMO many adjustments are required (mostly in terms of hand reading) which make some "online advice" so much different.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"Bigger pot but the SB leading into five players is far more likely to be a hand that has you beat"

here's where i always seem to disagree with, well, all of you: the misconception you have that our opponents are really thinking when they play. if he had a super strong hand he'd try to checkraise. is he dumb enough to bet a weak hand into 5 player? weak draw? a dominated hand? a hand with reverse implied odds, a hand with other concepts attached to it he doesnt understand and has never heard of and never will? of course he is! that doesnt mean he might not have my 6 beat but please stop pretending these typical bad live game fish think like sensible educated players. it's like the same problem jim brier had with "typical" utg raising standards

[/ QUOTE ]

Most "part fish/part reasonable" (from original post) aka bad live B&M game players call way too much. They only bet a little too much (if that), especially against a large field. The fact that they don't think like "sensible educated players" doesn't matter much in this type of spot.

Glad you disagree with "all of you" rather than just me /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Mike's kicker is too big too play any other way. Turn the Q into a 3 and then I consider folding. Nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the kicker is a three it's an easy fold.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this count as a strategy post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if he wasn't kidding or busting chops.

~ Rick

[Justin A]

I play it the same way you do. With only two opponents SB is probably betting a very very wide range of hands here unless he's very passive. With five opponents I'd fold.