Question on manipulating pot size

[nut case ace]

OK, so obviously much has been written on controlling the size of the pot on the flop in order to force opponents to either correctly fold or incorrectly call on the turn when chasing. This makes sense, but what about when you are playing against a fish who doesn't understand any kind of poker math. This player will see a river whether you pump the pot up or whether he is getting terrible odds to make a turn call, just as long as he has some kind of draw that might win. Against this player is it still correct to limit the size of the pot in order to force him to make a call with insufficient pot/implied odds on the turn? I suppose some math could answer this question... anyone want to give it a shot? Thanks.

[Rolen]

Maybe this is too obvious, but doesn't the math work in your favor regardless of whether your opponent knows what's going on?

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this is too obvious, but doesn't the math work in your favor regardless of whether your opponent knows what's going on?

[/ QUOTE ]


Ding!

I think you're just caught up in semantics. What this strategy really is against donks isn't controlling the pot size; it's taking a free/cheap card when you're ahead--getting the money in when you're a BIGGER favorite.

[DcifrThs]

wrong forum /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Barron

[oreogod]

I didnt read all of your post. But say a fish has no clue about pot odds, yet they will chase their gutshots all day long. Say if u just call they are getting 11:1 on their gutshot...whether they know it or not, their call is good. Say u raise, they are getting 6:1. If they call u are making money and they are making a fundamental mistake. Regardless if they hit their gutshot, if u were to consistenly play this same person u would be making money off of them and over the long run, they'd keep losing to u.

[nut case ace]

ok, this makes sense, but here's my question: against a true donk who will chase that gutshot, is it really higher EV to just call the flop and raise the turn (or however else you might manipulate the size of the pot) than to just pump the pot up and make him pay more bets in order to see his river? It just seems to me like if he's going to call anyway, why not just make him pay the most you can? Of course, this may be flawed reasoning, but that's what i'm trying to find out -- and why it's flawed.

[oreogod]

If he is to act after u, u can call in which he is not making a mistake...or raise and he is making a mistake. U know he will call either way. Which do u think is better? If u are in the lead (top pair, over pair, two pair...whatever)...u are making money on him chasing a 4 outer (which u dont really mind anyway, if all he has is 4 outs, a majority of the time he is going to miss). You may want him to fold, but if he calls he is making a fundamental mistake and u are making money off of his call.

Some nights they will make gutshot after gutshot on you...but thats shortterm results. Play them for a week or more this will not be the case, ppl like this go broke in the long run.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
This player will see a river whether you pump the pot up or whether he is getting terrible odds to make a turn call, just as long as he has some kind of draw that might win.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will not no what a true donk got, if he calls you on flop/bet flop it doenst mean you know what he got. Could be a draw, could be anything.

And are u talking about HU? I dont see how u ever can manipulate anything against a donk on a weak draw. He will normally not bet it.

If u are going to raise flop, turn or river is dependent on position, his aggressivness, if he bluffs a lot... manipulating potsize got very little to do with it.