How Many Outs?

[IIAce]

I read SSHE and know how many outs it says to give for different cases (ie. backdoor flush/straight draws, overcards, etc...). It didn't however say anything about counting outs when you have mid pair. For example, if you have a mid pair with overcard, do you still count 1.5 outs for the overcard? I don't think so because if you just had overcards you'd count 1.5 outs for the overcard but two pair is stronger than one pair. For mid/bottom pairs, do you count the full 5 outs for trips/two pair? Assume that your two pair won't make the board scary or something, but discuss that as well if you want to.

I find this interesting because if you can count the full 5 outs and you have another weak draw like a gutshot you have 9 outs (as many as a 4-flush draw). Even without another weak draw, just 5 outs could be enough to call in some pots given high pot/implied odds.

Thanks!

[Alobar]

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I read SSHE and know how many outs it says to give for different cases (ie. backdoor flush/straight draws, overcards, etc...). It didn't however say anything about counting outs when you have mid pair. For example, if you have a mid pair with overcard, do you still count 1.5 outs for the overcard? I don't think so because if you just had overcards you'd count 1.5 outs for the overcard but two pair is stronger than one pair. For mid/bottom pairs, do you count the full 5 outs for trips/two pair? Assume that your two pair won't make the board scary or something, but discuss that as well if you want to.

I find this interesting because if you can count the full 5 outs and you have another weak draw like a gutshot you have 9 outs (as many as a 4-flush draw). Even without another weak draw, just 5 outs could be enough to call in some pots given high pot/implied odds.

Thanks!

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not sure what you are trying to say. I think maybe you are mixing up two different concepts.

An "out" is any card that improves your hand. If you have middle pair, there are 5 cards (outs) that will improve your hand. 2 cards that will give you trips, and 3 that will give you 2 pair.

Now depending on the board, you may have to "discount" your outs. If you think that even if your hand improves it wont be enough to win, or that it may give someone else a better hand, or a draw to a better hand, you have to factor that into your decision on whether or not to call based on the odds you are getting from the pot, a way to do this is to take the number of outs you have, and then lower it some what (based on factors like, the board, experience, etc) and then use that number to decide on calling or not.

For example you have A8 of spades, and the board is J85 all in hearts. While there are still 5 cards that improve your hand, not all of the cards are good for you. If you hit the A of hearts it puts 4 flush cards on the board. And even if you hit a good ace or a 5, you can still easily lose to the flush. So when evaluating the hand, you may decide to discount your outs to 2, so tthat when you decide whether or not to call, you would only call if the pot was giving you the ods required to call a 2 outter, as opposed to a 5 outter.

Also you are very correct, a hand with weak draws is worht much more than one without. Having middle pair with a backdoor flush draw, can change a hand thats a fold, into a hand thats a call (or even a raise). Which is why its very important to always be aware of how many outs you have, and to be aware that not all of your outs may be good cards for you.