online 20/40: ramming and jamming with AKs

[astroglide]

typically aggressive online 20/40, i get dealt AKh in the small blind

unknown utg raises, 3 folds, mp nutjob 3bets, 2 more folds, terrible guy cold calls $60, i 4bet (cap), bb drops and we see the flop 4-handed

flop comes down 7h 7s 8h, i bet, utg raises, mp nutjob 3bets, terrible guy colds $60 again, i cap, and we see the turn 4-handed

turn brings the Tc, i check, utg checks, mp nutjob bets, terrible guy calls, i raise, utg calls, mp nutjob calls, terrible guy calls, utg cold calls and we see the river 4-handed

river brings the Kd, i bet, utg folds, mp nutjob folds, terrible guy calls

[PokerPrince]

And here I thought I was aggressive.

PokerPrince

[elysium]

hi astro
whew, well....i don't know. astro, i just have a feeling that you're beat here. i like folding this thing on the flop. i don't see any reason to continue on with your holding.

the flop was terrible....well let's see. o.k., i see now you're suited, but no. you have to see the wreckless out there who just flopped his boat.

astro, this is what i have learned here at 2+2 about this type game. these opponents will keep coming at you with only callable hands; they will raise and reraise, and the nut flush draw juxtaposed to your terrible opponents looks like an unbeatable powerhouse, only to have some wreckless show down the rivered boat. and yes, he is getting the worst of it all the way, but doggonit astro, and i'll never hear the end of it, i just don't think you should be playing in this one, without a made hand. the thinking here is that yes, on paper and every way you look at it, you're getting the best of it. but whenever the board is compact, even or especially i could say, the lower end type compacts, these wreckless....doggonit astro say what you will, these wreckless defy the laws of mathematics. the 73s against your nut flush looks like dead meat, but if he's wreckless enough, he gets you every time.

that is not his weakness, that is the wrecklesses greatest strength. and my thinking here is to give him his stupid boat early on. when the board is TT3 two toned and the wreckless is raising like a madman on the flop, get out of there. yea, you'll have +ev playing against him here over-all, but this is where the wreckless lucks out the most, and where his most stinging wins come from. nothing is written about this, nor ever will be except here at elysium's place, but doggonnit astro if you fold believing that you avoided running into the boat you just seem to play better. but if the wreckless hammers you all the way to the dang river, and then rivers you, afterwards you play worse. if you could forget about it, that's another thing; but no one forgets about it. everyone always seems to play worse.

but if you stay in the wrecklesses weak area, that is his continuing to come at you against your made hand when he shouldn't, and the board tells you he doesn't have it, wow do you just seem to play better afterwards. no one else would play it like that, but i just feel like the -ev of folding when the wreckless has things going for him, even though yes you're still +ev, i just feel like the -ev of folding is overshadowed by the combination of not possibly going on tilt and the +ev of playing better after having the wreckless stay with you all the way against your made hand. also, after the wreckless beats you inspite of the odds, the dang wreckless seems to play better, becoming wildly wreckless. now you have to contend with an unknowledgable wild wreckless loose cannon. and doggonit if he doesn't river you again. it happens everytime.

[J_V]

Elysium your posts/replies are ALL pretty far off base. This one its hard to do anything but dismiss them. I think you need to reevaluate what you are thinking/saying in many aspects of your game. In this hand, you want to fold AKh on the flop, when you should be capping it? Maybe you didn't notice that astro flopped a four flush. As far as the rest of it goes, I couldn't exactly make out your points, but it seems like you were advocated folding hand because the runner runner boat is coming, or some nonsense like that.

[PokerPrince]

PokerPrince

[elysium]

hi jv
well, let's see...runner, runner jv? who told you runner, runner? i'm not going to project childhood memories onto the page as poker is so fond of doing, but you may be suffering from some type of 'thought induced' hallucination. son what you are looking at is a compact board. whether it's a broadway compact or not, it's still a verifiable compact board. the maniacs thrive here against draws because one finds it almost impossible to fold against the maniac. does the betting pattern suggest he already has the boat? no, because you can't put him on a hand. therefore, since he will continue to call you all the way on some later round, sometimes the best course of action is to avoid fighting him here and instead fight him where he is weak; against your made hand. and i said over and over that my post would be attacked by people such as yourself; and i think i made it clear that astro is still in the lead and has +ev. but jv what is so striking about your rebuttal is that you let everyone know here that in your opinion astro should call everytime based on the cards in astro's hand and on the board. is that right jv? it is, correct? o.k., i just want to be sure i hear you correctly. what you are saying is that astro must call or raise everytime; never fold, is that right? are you sure? good. don't send in a retort because your post has already retorted enough and affirmed for everyone that you reccomend calling every time. recomend....thanks for the correction on the spelling j.v.

on that board? o.k.

you know what j.v., that recomendation isn't even worth addressing.

astro, you can weigh all the info for yourself. you can decide for yourself if you must call when two solid opponents are raising you on a compact. oh, and for what its worth, j.v. here says call with your draw every time.

[astroglide]

hm, i thought this would get more traffic than it did.

after i bet utg and mp nutjob folded, terrible player called, and mucked after i showed.

[Ulysses]

Pre-flop and flop seem routine to me.

On the turn, I'm not so sure about the raise. Which of these reasons was it for?

1) Try to get someone to fold an 8. Not sure if that's likely in a game like this.

2) Clean up your AK outs. Again, I dont see AT/KT or A8/K8 folding here.

3) You feel confident all 13 outs are likely good and everyone will call your bet.

All in all, I'd probably just call the turn, since I don't want to (but have to) pay off nutjob's three bet on the turn if he has a seven.

Once there's no 3-bet on the turn, the river is an automatic bet and you obviously should expect to win.

[J_V]

I still don't follow what you're saying. But, yes Astro should never fold. He's a favorite against QQ, JJ, 10-10, his jamming opponents most likely hand. I don't really like the turn raise unless Astro though AK had a chance to be good on the turn.

[Diplomat]

Hey Astro,

I am still confused about your turn raise. Why raise?

-Diplomat

[astroglide]

i raised the turn because i still felt i had the best hand with all of my outs being clean. if aq wants to drop here, i'm happy with that. if they all call or if i get 3bet, i've still got plenty of leverage with the flush draw.

with 4 opponents i'd be pushing the odds with the flush draw, so raising should be a no-brainer there given that i have 6 other believable outs. with 3 opponents (and specifically the quality of my opponents) i think i had enough to raise on here, and i didn't particularly care if all called or all dropped. i wouldn't have done it if i thought i was more likely than not to get 3bet.