$109s - KK Hand

[Unarmed]

Button has seen a couple flops and folded. No other reads. Lets not have this degenerate into a PF raise size debate please. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t990)
CO (t960)
Button (t880)
Hero (t985)
BB (t950)
UTG (t1180)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1220)
MP1 (t750)
MP2 (t1085)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60 </font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t45, Button calls t45.

Flop: (t195) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t350</font>, Hero calls t200.

Turn: (t895) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Bobby pushes, Hero folds.

[citanul]

i hate:

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<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60 </font>

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that part of the hand, and i hate:

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Hero calls t200

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that part of the hand, but i really hate:

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Hero checks, Hero folds.

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that part of the hand the most /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[inyaface]

I like trying to get more chips in on the flop. Either re-pop or C/R. Once the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif hits its a pretty easy check fold.

What's your line when the turn blanks off?

[Unarmed]

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I like trying to get more chips in on the flop. Either re-pop or C/R. Once the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif hits its a pretty easy check fold.

What's your line when the turn blanks off?

[/ QUOTE ]

All-in on anything but an Ace or a Diamond.

[inyaface]

Yeh, I actually don't mind how you played it that much.
I like a push to the re-raise on the flop but since most of the time the turns going to blank off and you can just push the turn its not a terrible line at all especially with the goal of pricing out a draw. As it turned out you got the worst card in the deck and had to fold but...[censored] happens. 90 percent of the time your line works fine

[ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I actually don't mind how you played it that much.
I like a push to the re-raise on the flop but since most of the time the turns going to blank off and you can just push the turn its not a terrible line at all especially with the goal of pricing out a draw. As it turned out you got the worst card in the deck and had to fold but...[censored] happens. 90 percent of the time your line works fine


[/ QUOTE ]

I think OP's line is optimal. The only risk is that villain has the 10 and will be pushed off if a J or Q falls, and it's got the huge advantage of giving hero more information before he has to commit his chips to a likely caller.

[gumpzilla]

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All-in on anything but an Ace or a Diamond.

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I think the fact that it is both an ace and a diamond suggests that both are somewhat less threatening. What A do you think button is limp calling PF and then repopping you on the flop? I can imagine that he'd do that with AK, AQ and a big diamond, maybe, but the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif makes that less likely in my mind. Or do you give him credit for TT or the like? If I've called the flop, I'm calling that turn, in this circumstance.

[Jman28]

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I think the fact that it is both an ace and a diamond suggests that both are somewhat less threatening.

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Well, yes and no. On the flop, I put him on nut flush draw, straightflush draw, set, two pair, straight, AT.

Now with the Ad on board, that eliminates the possibility that he had the nut flush draw, and leaves only hands that hero is behind: made low flush, set, 2 pair, straight, AT (two pair now).

I would say it's much better than even money that he has a set or AT after the turn shows up.

[Gramps]

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Flop: (t195) 6, T, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets t150, UTG folds, Button raises to t350, Hero calls t200.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. JJ and QQ will come along anyhow if you push, all you're really doing is giving a free card to hands that are behind but drawing to beat you. He didn't have the Ace-high flush draw, but you're giving him a free draw to 12 outs the times he does. When you push, you'll even get an "embarrased call" from hands like 77, A8, or some other random hand, and plenty of players will call off all their chips with TP-shat kicker (where they may actually fold if you just call, then push the Turn - it's more noble for them to fold than folding to a reraise, and a scare card may hit the Turn for them that doesn't change how ahead you are).

Occasionally, if the button is making a total bluff, if you just call he'll bluff the Turn as well with few to no outs. However, it's better to keep that option alive on a safe board - like when you have AA and there's a small pair/rainbow board.

[Jman28]

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Flop: (t195) 6, T, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets t150, UTG folds, Button raises to t350, Hero calls t200.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. JJ and QQ will come along anyhow if you push, all you're really doing is giving a free card to hands that are behind but drawing to beat you. He didn't have the Ace-high flush draw, but you're giving him a free draw to 12 outs the times he does. When you push, you'll even get an "embarrased call" from hands like 77, A8, or some other random hand, and plenty of players will call off all their chips with TP-shat kicker (where they may actually fold if you just call, then push the Turn - it's more noble for them to fold than folding to a reraise, and a scare card may hit the Turn for them that doesn't change how ahead you are).

Occasionally, if the button is making a total bluff, if you just call he'll bluff the Turn as well with few to no outs. However, it's better to keep that option alive on a safe board - like when you have AA and there's a small pair/rainbow board.

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I think I agree with you that this is a push/fold situation on the flop (you're saying that, right?), but I still don't know which I prefer. Are you saying pushing is best?

[Myst]

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Flop: (t195) 6, T, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets t150, UTG folds, Button raises to t350, Hero calls t200.

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Ugh. JJ and QQ will come along anyhow if you push, all you're really doing is giving a free card to hands that are behind but drawing to beat you. He didn't have the Ace-high flush draw, but you're giving him a free draw to 12 outs the times he does. When you push, you'll even get an "embarrased call" from hands like 77, A8, or some other random hand, and plenty of players will call off all their chips with TP-shat kicker (where they may actually fold if you just call, then push the Turn - it's more noble for them to fold than folding to a reraise, and a scare card may hit the Turn for them that doesn't change how ahead you are).

Occasionally, if the button is making a total bluff, if you just call he'll bluff the Turn as well with few to no outs. However, it's better to keep that option alive on a safe board - like when you have AA and there's a small pair/rainbow board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree with you that this is a push/fold situation on the flop (you're saying that, right?), but I still don't know which I prefer. Are you saying pushing is best?

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I agree with Gramps whole heartedly here. I think a push with the range of hands out that would raise that flop is the better play.

[Gramps]

There's way too many foolio playmakers even in higher buy-in SNGs who will coldcall your raise and raise you on the flop with a ton of worse hands here (and they're still around in Level 1). Sometimes you will be beat, sometimes you'll get outdrawn, but you're way ahead &gt; half the time IME, you're a slight favorite sometimes against the Ace high flush draw, and occasionally you'll run into a set. All in all, a push is highly +cev, and probably significantly +$EV (esp. since you'll get more calls ("embarassed calls") IME against beat hands that you're way ahead of, that might bow out on the Turn to a flop call, Turn lead).

Not that I have some statistical analysis to back it up, just experience (others may disagree based on theirs).

[Newt_Buggs]

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There's way too many foolio playmakers even in higher buy-in SNGs who will coldcall your raise and raise you on the flop with a ton of worse hands here (and they're still around in Level 1). Sometimes you will be beat, sometimes you'll get outdrawn, but you're way ahead &gt; half the time IME, you're a slight favorite sometimes against the Ace high flush draw, and occasionally you'll run into a set. All in all, a push is highly +cev, and probably significantly +$EV (esp. since you'll get more calls ("embarassed calls") IME against beat hands that you're way ahead of, that might bow out on the Turn to a flop call, Turn lead).

Not that I have some statistical analysis to back it up, just experience (others may disagree based on theirs).

[/ QUOTE ]
nope, thats exactly what i was going to say. Nice posts as alwasys gramps.

I have a hard time putting button on an ace considering the betting so far, especially the flop raise, AA maybe.

I also agree with those who raise all in on the flop. Calling is a play I would sometimes make if I had position but here I agree pushing is better.

[yid3655]

My line would be re raise all in on the flop, I like your lead out bet but not the flat call

[curtains]

I raise more preflop (about 75-85). I also move allin after the raise on the flop. I am tired of seeing people making passive flop plays that convince them to fold later in the hand with a huge portion of their chips in the pot.

There is no chance that after his raise to 350 you should put yourself in a position to fold at any point during the hand. If your plan was to call and then check fold if a scare card comes, then I really hate your play. You have freaking 600 chips left! How can you allow this?

[curtains]

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I think the fact that it is both an ace and a diamond suggests that both are somewhat less threatening.

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Well, yes and no. On the flop, I put him on nut flush draw, straightflush draw, set, two pair, straight, AT.

Now with the Ad on board, that eliminates the possibility that he had the nut flush draw, and leaves only hands that hero is behind: made low flush, set, 2 pair, straight, AT (two pair now).

I would say it's much better than even money that he has a set or AT after the turn shows up.

[/ QUOTE ]


To all those that said that on the turn you are almost always facing hands that beat you, what games are you playing??? How many times do you have to see your opponent turn over some complete BS in a ridiculous spot. I admit it's far from an ideal situation on the turn, but jesus you are going to be ahead sometimes.

I mean honestly have you not seen hordes of opponents turn over hands like JT, T9s, 77 or just be on a complete bluff? How can you dream of putting these morons on such a tight range of hands?

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I think the fact that it is both an ace and a diamond suggests that both are somewhat less threatening.

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Well, yes and no. On the flop, I put him on nut flush draw, straightflush draw, set, two pair, straight, AT.

Now with the Ad on board, that eliminates the possibility that he had the nut flush draw, and leaves only hands that hero is behind: made low flush, set, 2 pair, straight, AT (two pair now).

I would say it's much better than even money that he has a set or AT after the turn shows up.

[/ QUOTE ]


To all those that said that on the turn you are almost always facing hands that beat you, what games are you playing??? How many times do you have to see your opponent turn over some complete BS in a ridiculous spot. I admit it's far from an ideal situation on the turn, but jesus you are going to be ahead sometimes.

I mean honestly have you not seen hordes of opponents turn over hands like JT, T9s, 77 or just be on a complete bluff? How can you dream of putting these morons on such a tight range of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but we're certainly well behind the range.

[curtains]

Yeah, my point is don't put yourself in these guessing games to begin with. You don't know what he has, if you are going to fold to so many scare cards you can end up costing yourself a ton in the long run.

If you are going to fold like a rabbit everytime some annoying card comes on the turn, then please put your money in on the flop and hope your hand holds up. Don't just plan to leave over 1/3rd of your stack sitting in the pot.

Sorry I'm going insane. I know a lot of the people involved in this threads are winning players, I just hate plays like this. Why make poker so complicated? You have an overpair, the pot is large and represents more money than you currently have in front of you, just put your money in like a normal person. Don't flat call and give yourself a chance to do something stupid.

[curtains]

btw I don't even think calling flop and then moving allin on turn is SO bad (I dont do it however).

The thing that I hate is when you allow yourself to freeze up with so many turn cards, some of which may not help your opponent at all. The pot is just too big to [censored] around and give your opponent the chance to bluff you out later in the hand.

[Unarmed]

Thanks for the reply Gramps.
I don't think he's on JJ/QQ/AT.
He limped PF on the button.
Does 77/A8 really raise that flop?
It's not like my 3/4 pot bet looked weak or anything.
I figured him for a set, some whack two pair, or a diamond draw.
Doesn't anyone ever peel a card off in this situation before setting their opponent all-in?
Your point about going to war without the nuts or close to it against the idiots early on is well taken.

[ QUOTE ]

btw I don't even think calling flop and then moving allin on turn is SO bad (I dont do it however).

The thing that I hate is when you allow yourself to freeze up with so many turn cards, some of which may not help your opponent at all. The pot is just too big to [censored] around and give your opponent the chance to bluff you out later in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're missing something. I'm going to make up an example because I don't want this to tie into the specific hand--maybe your argument is significant enough here to make your line correct, but it isn't guaranteed to be the best line (this is dependent on villain's hand range). Anyway, here's the example:

Suppose for whatever reason there's t300 in the pot preflop and you have t1800 in front, villain has you covered. You've got 9T, and the flop comes 29T, no suits. You bet pot and villain minraises. You know for certain that villain either has AT or an overpair, and he won't fold. If you push here, your cEV on the hand is ~75% of the total pot, or .75 * 3900 = 2925, which is of course pretty good.

But, what if you just call, and lead the turn unless a 2 falls--counterfeiting your two pair to all possible overpairs? If a 2 falls, villain will bet 100% of the time and you fold (which is almost correct, and probably correct if you factor in EV and not just cEV).

A 2 falls ~7% of the time. So, 7% of the time you keep your remaining 1200, and 93% of the time, you push the turn and get called by a hand that's a big dog (unless villain had AT and an A fell or villain setted, which you unfortunately must accept). I'll leave out the full calculation of the expected value if you push because it's really tedious and requires considering the turn in annoying ways, but it turns out that your odds of winning if a 2 doesn't fall on the turn are 83% (Not a bad increase, especially if you look at it in reverse. Your opponent used to be winning 25% of the time, now he's only winning 17% of the time, for a 32% decrease.).

Thus, your new cEV is 1200*.07 + .93 * 3900 * .83 = 3010. Thus, by playing it safe, you earn 85 chips per hand. In a SnG, this is even more significant because now you lose only .93 * .17 = 16% of the time, instead of the usual 25% of the time, and 7% of the time, when you were an underdog to the range, you saved yourself some chips.

That got longer than I wanted it to, but you see the point. Sometimes it's definitely correct to take a card off even when your favorite--even with a pot that is bigger than your stack. Usually this happens when there are a few cards that make you a significant dog to villain's range.

This may or may not be one of those situations (I suspect that it is, but I don't want to argue about villain's range of hands), but they definitely do arise.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Gramps.
I don't think he's on JJ/QQ/AT.
He limped PF on the button.
Does 77/A8 really raise that flop?
It's not like my 3/4 pot bet looked weak or anything.
I figured him for a set, some whack two pair, or a diamond draw.
Doesn't anyone ever peel a card off in this situation before setting their opponent all-in?
Your point about going to war without the nuts or close to it against the idiots early on is well taken.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think, along with considering AT, you need to consider KT, QT, JT, J9, T9. people just aren't as good as you want to think they are sometimes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

fwiw, in IM convo last night i gave basically the same reasoning curtains did. you've got a ton of chips in the pot, and you're allowing yourself to freeze up on a good % of the hands, and i think that these 1 pair hands should be more strongly considered in the mix (including jj and qq, even though rarely, because he did limp on the button).

i even went to the extent to point out that if the guy does have 77 or 99, which will sometimes make this play at you, you're giving a free card to someone with 6 outs. he said i was grasping at straws =( but hey, if giving the free card to someone with A8 is also a fear, i must not have been grasping /images/graemlins/smile.gif 6 outs just isn't that few.

it feels like out of the range jj, QQ, set, flush draw, unarmed wants to give him the set more than he should, i dunno. alright, i'm not actually conscious, i'm just awake to sell my microwave.

citanul

[fnord_too]

Meh. I like your pre flop raise size, I like your flop lead size.

I can see your line (I will assume you are betting, probably pushing, a turn blank?) The advantage here is that with so many draws out there you can see the turn before committing your chips. No way to really continue with probably the worst card in the deck coming off on the turn.

I can also see just pushing the flop when he raises. The advantage here is that there are so many scare cards in the deck, you may be at sea on the turn. As I count it, there are 11 diamonds, 3 A, 2 T, 4 7 and 4 9 for 24 cards that really scare you. If he has two of those, say two diamonds, there is still almost a 50/50 chance you will see a card that scares you. (Though, if he has a set, it is good to get scared off your hand). A lot of those draws will call (or fold, that's fine too) if you push and you won't have to worry about making difficult decisions or bleeding off chips if a card like 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes.

I play it both ways, and I think either is fine (though I think mixing it up is a good idea).

[Jman28]

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I think the fact that it is both an ace and a diamond suggests that both are somewhat less threatening.

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Well, yes and no. On the flop, I put him on nut flush draw, straightflush draw, set, two pair, straight, AT.

Now with the Ad on board, that eliminates the possibility that he had the nut flush draw, and leaves only hands that hero is behind: made low flush, set, 2 pair, straight, AT (two pair now).

I would say it's much better than even money that he has a set or AT after the turn shows up.

[/ QUOTE ]


To all those that said that on the turn you are almost always facing hands that beat you, what games are you playing??? How many times do you have to see your opponent turn over some complete BS in a ridiculous spot. I admit it's far from an ideal situation on the turn, but jesus you are going to be ahead sometimes.

I mean honestly have you not seen hordes of opponents turn over hands like JT, T9s, 77 or just be on a complete bluff? How can you dream of putting these morons on such a tight range of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. My range was too tight, and should've included bluffs. I haven't played in a week so maybe I forgot about all the morons.

Still, I find hands like the ones you're talking about show up when an opponent is the initial bettor, or just calls down. The raise of the large flop bet is a pretty aggressive action, and makes semi-bluffs (or pure bluffs) and strong made hands more likely than weak made hands.

But I think you're right, and we should push the flop.

[durron597]

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Ugh. JJ and QQ will come along anyhow if you push, all you're really doing is giving a free card to hands that are behind but drawing to beat you.

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[Gramps]

Yeah, I think you can mostly eliminate JJ/QQ with the late limp. The fact that you raised limpers from the blinds, led out on the flop and the last person to act raised you really opens up his range of hands here IME (in Level 1). Lots of foolio players love to playback/test the PFR in these spots with a wide range of hands, and will make an embarrassed call of the over the top for all of their chips. Every now and again I'll get called by stuff like 44, A9o (it's fun losing when those hands hit), and more often JT, A8, 77, a flush draw, and sometimes a set.

Foolio players don't trust your raise for strength, and want the satisfaction of making you fold after you raised them PF. Many people play for the visceral satisfaction of making others back down (or that clouds their thinking/logic at least).

[raptor517]

i make it 70 pf, 150 is fine on the flop, and i shove to the raise. just abuot every time. in fact, ill do it every time. holla

[curtains]

Hi Noah, I clearly understand your thought process. The problem is that we are not perfect poker playing cyborgs and we simply dont know what our opponent has. Our opponent could have any number of draws/hands that cuold make a turn card scare us away. We will not always make the corret decision as we would in your example. When we make the wrong decision it's extra costly as the pot is just so large compared to our stack.

When pots get huge, don't [censored] around. That's my general motto.

[The Yugoslavian]

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When pots get huge, don't [censored] around. That's my general motto.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I thought your general motto was:

I'm teh world CHAMP! I WILL CRUSH EVERYONE/THING!!! <font color="white">I ALSO WILL ALWAYS DO WHAT DRAPES TELLS ME TO!!!</font>

I guess I was wrong, /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Yugoslav

[Chaostracize]

t75 PF. 3-bet flop. Check fold turn.

[microbet]

I push after the raise on the flop. There are about a million hands that you are ahead of, and they all have outs.

[Jason Strasser]

Hey unarmed, I dont like it.

Whatever the range of hands your opponent has on the flop, its very unlikely he is folding to an all in. He could have a pair of tens or worse, or a draw, or jack [censored] as gramps pointed out. The key for me is that there are cards that can hit on the turn that can either kill your action, or get you to fold the best hand. What if he has QT and that turn card hits? When a player makes himself pot committed, and this is pretty pot committed, don't get fancy if you intend to show down.

-Jason

[Unarmed]

Ok thanks everyone.
I'm giving my opponents way too much credit, it seems.
I'll insta-ram that ish next time. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm giving my opponents way too much credit, it seems.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are making 2 mistakes: 1) you are putting yourself in tricky spots by not playing your good hands to their full value. This is a problem especially since you don't have position here and the board is drawy. 2) then, in a way, you give your opponents too much credit when a scare card falls. There are many cases specifically in deeper stacks NL where you want to let yourself have a room to re-evaluate the situation, or just get more value out of a good hand, but I don't think this is such a spot. Also, pushing on the flop here not only makes it easier for you, it is most often the higher EV route (for a few reasons that were treated in this thread). There's almost no downside to it.

Now, I know you asked not to get into a PF discussion, which I respect, so I'll say only one thing:

If you usually raise 2 limpers and they both call you, you should probably consider raising more.

BTW, I like reading and responding in your threads. You manage to post "simple" hands, but still there's always something to discuss. And also maybe it's because you respond well to criticism, which is a great thing for you.

[adanthar]

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I'm giving my opponents way too much credit, it seems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget that for a sec and think about your plan for the hand. You're gonna shove on any non-A, non-diamond...but that's a quarter of the deck. You're basically guaranteeing yourself folding what will often be the best hand 1/4 of the time. That alone is gonna kill your equity, not to mention that the pot is huge.

Honestly, if you have the right read, the turn fold is fine, but your plan for the hand after you bet that amount on that flop basically has to be 'if I'm raised, shove.'

[KramerTM]

Why are we not pushing the flop here?

[citanul]

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Why are we not pushing the flop here?

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i'm going to assume you mean "why are we not open pushing" because "why are we not pushing, instead of calling" as a question implies you just skipped over reading the whole, very content filled, thread.

you don't open push here because you try sometimes to do what's called extracting value from your good hands.

citanul