PLO8 $400 hand

[fat_nutz]

Anyone take a more aggressive line here? FWIW, Villian1 is very good, Villian2 is absolutely horrible.

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 7: Hero ( $1062.95 )
Seat 5: Broke ( $0 )
Seat 10: Villian2 ( $258.60 )
Seat 8: Villian1 ( $410 )
Villian1 posts small blind [$2].
Villian2 posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qc 5s 3h As ]

Hero raises [$14].
Villian1 calls [$12].
Villian2 calls [$10].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 2c, Js ] (Pot = $41)

Villian1 bets [$26].
Villian2 calls [$26].
Hero calls [$26].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ] (Pot = $119)

Villian1 bets [$55].
Villian2 calls [$55].
Hero calls [$55].

** Dealing River ** [ 2s ] (Pot = $284)

Villian1 checks.
Villian2 checks.
Hero checks.

[emptyshell]

Hmm... Raising the flop might be a reasonable idea: against most top two pair hands you are about 50-50. You'd want to win the pot right there, though, since if someone comes after you, you will be at best 50-50. My play in a spot like that is very impulsive; I have yet to develop a stable strategy. As wrong as it sounds, I would probably raise if I was sitting behind a big stack like yours. It just seems like it would be more intimidating, and I would be feeling bold after having won some big pots.

Raising the turn seems too likely to get called by a better hand; and you really, really do not want to get re-raised. On the river, you are obviously concerned about someone bluffing you off of your hand with a check-raise. If you were just concerned with whether you were good or not, a 1/3-1/2 pot size value bet seems appropriate (with the intention to folding to a raise). You would likely get called by worse flushes.

The tricky part is that it looks you are on a flush draw all the way through the hand, since you didn't raise on the flop or turn (although the straight possibility on the turn complicates this line of reasoning.) An aggressive player might decide to blow you off your hand if you bet the river. If you think Villain1 is one of the very rare players that might do this, checking is probably best. In most situations, the value bet is probably best.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... Raising the flop might be a reasonable idea: against most top two pair hands you are about 50-50. You'd want to win the pot right there, though, since if someone comes after you, you will be at best 50-50. My play in a spot like that is very impulsive; I have yet to develop a stable strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise? You reraise with something like just a flush draw in this type of situation? I cannot believe the few small pots you steal against two pair make up for the amount you put in on the reraises and the times you lose when you are put all in by top set or get called down by small sets. Your 18% against any set in this spot. Sounds like a losing proposition to me, but I have been playing a lot of omaha high lately so maybe im losing it. How about explaining it further empty?, sounds like an interesting idea, but at the same time sounds insane.

[emptyshell]

Don't forget the backdoor low draw with counterfeit protection. Against top set, he's a 63/37 dog. Obviously not what you want, but much better than 18%. I think it's more likely he'll get two pair or AA to fold with the raise. If he gets called (not reraised) and a spade hits, he's in a really good position.

Nonetheless, I'm willing to accept that calling is probably the better move in the long run. The raise would have to be partly image building suited for shorthanded play.

[GooperMC]

Anyone else notice that the "very good" player is only betting 1/2 pot all the way down. I assume that with top set he is going to be blasting so that either looks like a milking bet or a feeler bet. Since you hold the nut flush draw I don't see any hand that would want to milk that pot so unless opponents at this level are very tricky I am guessing that your opponent is playing 2 pair and wants to know where he is at.

I am not advocating it but I think that re-raising the flop in position would be more of a viable option because of the 1/2 pot bets. What worries me about the re-raise would be the donk in the middle. You may be able to push the decent player off his 2 pair, but you may not bet able to push the donk off his TPTK.

Obviously I don't play this level so does anyone else have an interpretation of the 1/2 pot bets?

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone take a more aggressive line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else notice that the "very good" player is only betting 1/2 pot all the way down. I assume that with top set he is going to be blasting so that either looks like a milking bet or a feeler bet. Since you hold the nut flush draw I don't see any hand that would want to milk that pot so unless opponents at this level are very tricky I am guessing that your opponent is playing 2 pair and wants to know where he is at.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the opponent trying to find out where he is at, but the other one is a weird one, he could have anything at that point, bottom set, or a draw. The reason I dont like the reraise is because he is getting great odds to draw, I mean its hard to pick up a pot from two people like that, its obvious both are interested and knowing wintermute he probably has the image of a maniac so its likely he will get called down by one of the two, but your idea of betting could be correct as well, seems good in this spot since he only bet half the pot.

[emptyshell]

Oh, I saw that it was 1/2 pot on the turn but missed that on the flop. With position, I would usually raise the flop in that case. You might win the pot right there and, if you don't, you'll likely get a free card on the turn.

[GooperMC]

I think that I would raise if it was only the good player in the hand but the bad player in the middle scares me. I think that the players helps by increasing your pot / implied odds but decreases your fold equity.

Empty even with that bad player in the middle do you still raise?

[GooperMC]

Greg would you raise that flop 1/2 pot bet if the bad player in the middle didn't call?

[fat_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone take a more aggressive line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even on the river? Given the betting on prev. streets it seems like Villian1 would bet if he had made a full house.... feel like I missed a bet there.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Even on the river? Given the betting on prev. streets it seems like Villian1 would bet if he had made a full house.... feel like I missed a bet there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, yeah, the more i think about it the more i like a bet. you could have good player with a wrap+K-hi flush willing to call, and fishy might call. given fishy is here, a sneaky check-raise to blow fishy out seems unlikely. of course, if he had 22 and thinks you are over-agro, then.....

[ QUOTE ]
Greg would you raise that flop 1/2 pot bet if the bad player in the middle didn't call?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. People who bet on 2-high card boards like that can’t be counted on to fold sets or 2-pair, and you are behind if they don’t. I’d be more likely to raise if the bad player stayed, actually, as then you have odds and might get free cards.


[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I don't play this level so does anyone else have an interpretation of the 1/2 pot bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

two pair seems most likely, but a wrap hand like TQK with or without spades is also possible.

[emptyshell]

Well, for me, it's very dependent on how the game was playing out and how bad the bad player really is. A bad player would be likely to call a 1/2 pot size bet with nothing but top pair, but to call a full pot raise with that same hand would be ridiculously bad.

If most hands were being checked down to the river and this hand was unusual for the betting, it might make more sense to just call. If people are constantly taking stabs at pots on the flop, a raise makes the most sense.

The problem with just calling is that, if you hit, you are unlikely to get paid off. If you raise, you (1) give yourself another way to win the pot, (2) build a big pot for when you do hit, (3) disguise your hand, and (4) possibly buy a "free" river card.

Disguising your hand can create much better implied odds. Here's one example (although, of course, the decision to bet was made trivial by my top two pair.)

***** Hand History for Game 2615630571 *****
$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
BUT ( $376 ), SB ( $415.40 ),
UTG ( $387.90 ), UTG+1 ( $297.35 ), UTG+2 ( $503.96 ),
MP1 ( $432.10 ), MP2 ( $378.16 ), CO ( $188.40 ),
Hero ( $400 ), MP3 ( $89.30 )

Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB posts $2.
Hero posts $4.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls $4,
CO calls $4, BUT calls $4, SB calls $2,
Hero checks

<font color="blue">Flop</font>: (22.80) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, Hero bets $22.80, UTG+2 calls $22.80,
MP3 folds, CO folds, BUT folds, SB folds

<font color="blue">Turn</font>: (66.60) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero bets $66.60, UTG+2 calls $66.60

<font color="blue">River</font>: (199.80) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
(long pause)Hero bets $100, UTG+2 raises $275,
Hero is all-In $206.60, UTG+2 calls $31.60

UTG+2 shows Qc, Tc, 9d, Ac a straight, nine to king.
Hero shows Ks, Jh, Ah, 3h a flush, ace high.

Hero wins $813 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
There was no qualifying low hand.


All that being said, maybe calling is better. I don't feel like I have enough experience to know for sure.

[fat_nutz]

You may not want to give the HH ID # in future posts. Now anyone can go request that HH and figure out your screenname. If you care...

[Jorge10]

Seems like a different situation, I mean top two is pretty strong. Look at this:

Dealt to Hero [ As Jh Tc Ks ]
Folder1 folds.
Folder2 folds.
Folder3 folds.
Villan2 calls [$2].
Folder4 folds.
Folder5 folds.
Folder6 folds.
Hero calls [$2].
Villan1 raises [$9].
Folder7 folds.
Villan2 calls [$8].
Hero calls [$8].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 2c, Kh ]
Villan1 bets [$30.40].
Villan2 calls [$30.40].
Hero raises [$152].
Villan1 is all-In.
Villan2 calls [$133.50].
Hero calls [$11.90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
Villan2 checks.
Hero is all-In.
Villan2 calls [$19.98].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
Villan2 shows [ 2s, 4c, 3d, Ac ] two pairs, eights and twos.
Hero shows [ As, Jh, Tc, Ks ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
Villan1 doesn't show [ Td, Kc, Qh, Ad ] two pairs, kings and eights.
Hero wins $39.96 from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and jacks.
Hero wins $520.70 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and jacks.
There was no qualifying low hand.

[emptyshell]

Oops, missed that.

Actually, though, I'm quite willing to take on anybody that doesn't already know my screen name. /images/graemlins/cool.gif