Wow. Just . . . WOW. (Sorry, LC)

[Grisgra]

Is it a full moon tonight, or do 7Stud players at Party *never* give a crap that you've paired your door card? Because if they always play that way . . . I missed the memo.

I am not a 7Stud player . . . I'm one of those shorthanded limit HE slugs, though I play some Stud8 when I want some variety. Thought I'd branch out a little into regular Stud, just to keep things fresh. Reread Sklansky's "7Stud for Advanced Players) (well, at least some of it, damn, the man needed an editor on that one), and booted up a couple of Party tables.

Apparently, they'll call you down with their split pair of queens even if you pair your door card and start raising them. Or open UTG with Q75r and take another one off on 4th street after they get reraised by someone showing a King.

Sorry, you guys probably knew all this already. And didn't send me the memo. But . . . damn. Damn damn damn. Damn!

Hey, I said it was going to be low content . . . but what is the expected win rate for someone who knows what they're doing on these tables? Eleventy-billion BB/100 or so? I'm guessing?

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
what is the expected win rate for someone who knows what they're doing on these tables? Eleventy-billion BB/100 or so? I'm guessing?

[/ QUOTE ]

The full moon must have really helped. But despite what you might think, the party stud games arent nearly as profitable as their hold'em counterparts at any limit. I'm not sure what limit you were playing at but you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.

Mike Emery

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
....you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.


[/ QUOTE ]

That gives me something to shoot for. Thanks Mike.

[grb137]

Two things. First, PP is full of fish - don't be mad about it, just take advantage of it. E.g. don't represent trips if you don't really have it. You'll get plenty of callers when you do, so there's no need to try to make money bluffing.

Second, there are a TON of people, like you, who bet trying to represent trips when they don't really have it. People know this, and it gives them reason to call down. Again, don't be mad about it, but rather take advantage of it!

I think its hard to generalize a win rate...afterall, people's skill varies, don't you think? I do well at Stud, and I suck at HE, so I would tend to say stud is more profitable. Emery kicks a$$ on HE, so naturally he thinks its more profitable.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Two things. First, PP is full of fish - don't be mad about it, just take advantage of it. E.g. don't represent trips if you don't really have it. You'll get plenty of callers when you do, so there's no need to try to make money bluffing.

Second, there are a TON of people, like you, who bet trying to represent trips when they don't really have it. People know this, and it gives them reason to call down. Again, don't be mad about it, but rather take advantage of it!

I think its hard to generalize a win rate...afterall, people's skill varies, don't you think? I do well at Stud, and I suck at HE, so I would tend to say stud is more profitable. Emery kicks a$$ on HE, so naturally he thinks its more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, no complaining here. I went on a 50BB rush over 110 hands . . . I had some luck, but at least half of that was from people calling me down after I paired my door card. This was Party 5/10, not higher . . . but I can't believe that the 5/10 isn't beatable for at least 3-4BB/100, if not more. (I'm guessing that just like the Stud8 games, there's a very wide differential in player quality between the 5/10 Stud games and the 10/20 Stud games.)

Or maybe I just got lucky and sat down at two tables stocked with more fish than usual. Talk about your small sample sizes. Still . . . damn.

Goes without saying I completely agree with that no-bluffing thing /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

I play a lot of 1/2 and 2/4 over at pacific and people will find whatever reason to call. They'll call an paired door card with a lower pair, open trips with straight or flush draws that are almost dead, etc. What i've learned from this is A) don't bluff, you'll be called, and B) don't slowplay anything, because you'll be called. Also, a paired door card often doesn't mean anything since many players have vpip of around 100%.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two things. First, PP is full of fish - don't be mad about it, just take advantage of it. E.g. don't represent trips if you don't really have it. You'll get plenty of callers when you do, so there's no need to try to make money bluffing.

Second, there are a TON of people, like you, who bet trying to represent trips when they don't really have it. People know this, and it gives them reason to call down. Again, don't be mad about it, but rather take advantage of it!

I think its hard to generalize a win rate...afterall, people's skill varies, don't you think? I do well at Stud, and I suck at HE, so I would tend to say stud is more profitable. Emery kicks a$$ on HE, so naturally he thinks its more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, no complaining here. I went on a 50BB rush over 110 hands . . . I had some luck, but at least half of that was from people calling me down after I paired my door card. This was Party 5/10, not higher . . . but I can't believe that the 5/10 isn't beatable for at least 3-4BB/100, if not more. (I'm guessing that just like the Stud8 games, there's a very wide differential in player quality between the 5/10 Stud games and the 10/20 Stud games.)

Or maybe I just got lucky and sat down at two tables stocked with more fish than usual. Talk about your small sample sizes. Still . . . damn.

Goes without saying I completely agree with that no-bluffing thing /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]


Do you think its normal to get trips a lot over 110 hands? I can play a week without pairing my door card. Congratulations. You won a lot in one night. Quit your day job and become a poker pro.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think its normal to get trips a lot over 110 hands? I can play a week without pairing my door card. Congratulations. You won a lot in one night. Quit your day job and become a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to get all smarmy. I'm going to pair my door card on 4th street around 5% of the time (if it's already paired, i.e., it's a 2-outer) and 7% of the time if it's not. So around 1/15 or 1/20 of the hands I play -- and that's just 4th street. Not exactly a super-rare occurrence.

Was just surprised that almost nobody at the 5/10 game seems to care when it happens, and just calls me down all the way. It's generalizable to other instances -- cases where it's obvious they're beaten but they'll chase those 4-outers all the way to the river.

By the way, I multitable 10/20 and 20/40 shorthanded limit HE, and could quit my day job and become a poker pro anytime I wanted. So nyeah.

[BeerMoney]

Maybe you were cracking some big hands that you didn't have any business playing against.. e.g., someone has aces and you pair your doorcard with deuces. I'll assume you're smart enough to realize that short run swings like this usually mean a player is playing too loose.

[DeadMoneyOC]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I multitable 10/20 and 20/40 shorthanded limit HE, and could quit my day job and become a poker pro anytime I wanted. So nyeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

So nyeah...we got a tough guy on our hands here...

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
....you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.




That gives me something to shoot for. Thanks Mike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow I think you might already be capable of this, Andy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
but I can't believe that the 5/10 isn't beatable for at least 3-4BB/100, if not more.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is you just hit a rush and there were a lot of bad players making bad plays at the current time you were on. I can assure you that no player on party currently averages 3-4 BB's/100, or more, in the 5-10 over a reasonable amount of hands. I have played tens of thousands of hands there along with several other posters here. I kept good records and only averaged around 2.3BB/100. If I recall correctly, Vintage Sara also posted similar stats (slightly over 2BB/100) once when discussing her winrate in this game. Since the consensus is that shes one of the best players on party ( she is ) it should show you that 3-4 or more per 100 cant be done over time. More regulars from this game like Roland, Beer, Frappe, Stream, Beta, etc., can chime in here.

Mike Emery

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe you were cracking some big hands that you didn't have any business playing against.. e.g., someone has aces and you pair your doorcard with deuces. I'll assume you're smart enough to realize that short run swings like this usually mean a player is playing too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

p. 68 of 7CSFAP:

"As already mentioned, you must take into account whether your hand has the potential to improve enough that it would be a mistake for your opponent to pay off all the way. Here's an example. Suppose you start with:

5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

If you catch a nine, your opponent probably is correct to call all thw way with just one pair because you are holding a hand that can easily be beaten. Thus, this hand is barely worth a call, even for a bring-in against typical opposition. However, against players who will pay you off all the way if you make open fives, then it becomes worthwhile to call."

That said, I didn't even play anything as weak as 595r. I did, coincidentally, win when I got trip deuces on 4th street, but as I was the bring-in I can't exactly be blamed for seeing 4th. (I don't even think I had to call a complete bet on 3rd.) And obviously, there they have much less reason to suspect I have anything . . . but there were at least two or three other cases where I should have been in the hand -- raised or reraised them on 3rd, in fact, before I foolishly realized that it's impossible to get people headsup on 3rd -- and then paired my doorcard and had them call me down all the way. They didn't even have two pair.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]

My guess is you just hit a rush and there were a lot of bad players making bad plays at the current time you were on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that both of these are the case.

[ QUOTE ]
I can assure you that no player on party currently averages 3-4 BB's/100, or more, in the 5-10 over a reasonable amount of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.

Just seems to me that 3rd street hand selection in Stud is more important than preflop hand selection in Hold 'em, and that the players in Stud (that I saw) were often even worse than the Hold 'em fish. That, combined with the calldowns . . . wowie.

Well, here's to hoping the rush continues /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[grb137]

[ QUOTE ]
Congratulations. You won a lot in one night. Quit your day job and become a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an uncharacteristic tone from you -- having a bad night at the tables?

[grb137]

[ QUOTE ]

I'll assume you're smart enough to realize that short run swings like this usually mean a player is playing too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Its very possible for a person playing "textbook"/ABC/correct poker to go on a nice run where he's hitting/filling everything. It doesn't necessarily mean he's playing too loose, it just means you're hitting your cards, thats all.

[grb137]

[ QUOTE ]

That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been skeptical of these claims as well - while I don't purport to be an expert, I do see certain regulars on party that are almost always winning players. Maybe 1 day I'll care enough to keep track of my winrate. I feel the same as you do Grisgra: I don't see why a solid player multi-tabling 5-10 couldn't make a decent 4-5BB/hr.

[grb137]

Case in point: Opponent had just lost a big pot holding a flush, losing to a boat, 2 hands ago. I strongly suspected the guy was on tilt, and look what he did for me:

7 Card Stud High ($20/$40), Ante $2, Bring-In $5 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

Hero: $1,566
Seat 5: $239
Seat 7: $1,259

3rd Street - (0.30 SB)

Hero: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif___completes___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (6.55 SB)

Hero: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls

5th Street - (4.28 BB)

Hero: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___raises

6th Street - (8.28 BB)

Hero: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___calls

River - (10.28 BB)

Hero: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif xx___bets (all-in)

Total pot: 12.13 BB

Results:
Main Pot: $484 | | Rake: $1

Hero: [ 3d Qh Qc 3h 8h Ts 7h ] [ two pairs, queens and threes -- Qh,Qc,Ts,3d,3h ]

Seat 5: [ Qd 5c 5h 4c Ac Js Ks ] [ a pair of fives -- Ac,Ks,Qd,5c,5h ]

---

At 20/40! I see this happen often! Surely 4-5/bb is possible with this king of stuff happening.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

That actually surprises me quite a bit, but you guys are the ones who have put the hands in, not me. With play as bad as I saw, I have a tough time imagining that one couldn't win 3-4BB/100, but from what you say it's probably just that these were the fishiest of the fishiest and I was simply in the right place at the right time.




I have been skeptical of these claims as well - while I don't purport to be an expert, I do see certain regulars on party that are almost always winning players. Maybe 1 day I'll care enough to keep track of my winrate. I feel the same as you do Grisgra: I don't see why a solid player multi-tabling 5-10 couldn't make a decent 4-5BB/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

But who makes this 4-5BB/hr out of these "certain regulars", grb? I know you've played a lot of 5-10 through 20-40 stud on party with me before, you know all the regulars just like many of us, the big winners, the big losers. On the stud forum we now have some of the best players on party. Of the ones who have tracked extended results it just dosent seem likely anyone is doing it. I know you're a damn fine stud player but 4-5 BB/100 is out of reach over time.

*NOTE: While I say 4-5 isnt possible over time, I'm assuming you are playing in some average games as well as the spectacular ones when several fish are in them. I agree 4-5 BB is possible if you were only to play against the most advantageous lineups. The thing is that these lineups might only occur 15 hrs or so per week. During these times I fully agree 4-5BB/100 or more is possible. But a lot of these "regular winners" are pros and obviouslly have to play much more than 15 hrs per week to make ends meat.

Mike Emery

[SA125]

11:35 Sun night there's 6 $5-10 games going. 3 avg 6-7 BB's a pot and 3 less than 5. There's never as many good games going compared to full HE tables at $5-10, and it gets twice as tight above that. Which is why banking the nice score that you did isn't realistic on a long term consistent basis. There are no where near the newbies flocking to stud like they are in HE.

I saw a young woman drop $5K of her boyfriends roll playing live $20-40 HE. She has the skill level of a .50-$1 player. You aint getting that in stud.

[grb137]

[ QUOTE ]
But who makes this 4-5BB/hr out of these "certain regulars", grb? I know you've played a lot of 5-10 through 20-40 stud on party with me before, you know all the regulars just like many of us, the big winners, the big losers. On the stud forum we now have some of the best players on party. Of the ones who have tracked extended results it just dosent seem likely anyone is doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, off the top of my head, I suspect percy6 is easily clearing 4-5BB/hr - the guy 4 tables, and plays rock solid poker. Whenever I sit down, and he's playing, he almost always has more than the standard buy-in, and he almost always increases his stack while I'm playing.

Another guy off the top of my head - Fobol on the 10/20 Stud/8 tables - I've played a ton with him, and like percy, he plays it rock solid and is always winning.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're a damn fine stud player but 4-5 BB/100 is out of reach over time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well thank you for the complement, and I hope that I haven't seemed to come across like I think I'm capable of some super poker feat that others aren't. I just don't think 4-5 is that far outta range based on my part-time, place once and a while, experiences, such as the one I posted earlier in this thread.

And having played with you often, I believe that if you weren't so busy kicking everyone's a$$ in HE, you could be making 4-5BB/hr multitabling stud. Have *you* tracked your winrate in stud over an extended period?

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is the expected win rate for someone who knows what they're doing on these tables? Eleventy-billion BB/100 or so? I'm guessing?

[/ QUOTE ]

The full moon must have really helped. But despite what you might think, the party stud games arent nearly as profitable as their hold'em counterparts at any limit. I'm not sure what limit you were playing at but you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense mike but you seem a little bitter in this thread. Speculating about wr it's silly first of all, secondly there is absolutely no way for you to know this. I don't care how many hands you've played it's nowhere near enough to be so definitive.

[grb137]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is the expected win rate for someone who knows what they're doing on these tables? Eleventy-billion BB/100 or so? I'm guessing?

[/ QUOTE ]

The full moon must have really helped. But despite what you might think, the party stud games arent nearly as profitable as their hold'em counterparts at any limit. I'm not sure what limit you were playing at but you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense mike but you seem a little bitter in this thread. Speculating about wr it's silly first of all, secondly there is absolutely no way for you to know this. I don't care how many hands you've played it's nowhere near enough to be so definitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bitter? How so? Mike's a cool MFer.

[beset7]

sorry i mixed up beer and mikes posts. put together they sound bitter. ignore me sorry.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry i mixed up beer and mikes posts. put together they sound bitter. ignore me sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely bitter Beer /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Didn't think there was anything wrong with Mike's response though. Obviously, I'm a Stud newbie, all I have is a quick first impression of the games.

[beset7]

nah everything is fine i should know better then to post while multi-tabling. i'd delete my original post if I could.

i'd be shocked of 3b/100 wasn't possible at the 5/10 at least but others may know better i.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:
what is the expected win rate for someone who knows what they're doing on these tables? Eleventy-billion BB/100 or so? I'm guessing?



The full moon must have really helped. But despite what you might think, the party stud games arent nearly as profitable as their hold'em counterparts at any limit. I'm not sure what limit you were playing at but you can call yourself a stud expert if you can average 1BB/hr in 10-20 or 20-40 over time.

Mike Emery



No offense mike but you seem a little bitter in this thread. Speculating about wr it's silly first of all, secondly there is absolutely no way for you to know this. I don't care how many hands you've played it's nowhere near enough to be so definitive.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not bitter in any manner. I just was pointing out that winrates described by some just arent realistic. I dont want people in the doldrums when they are soild players but cant make the "expected" 4-5 BB's per hour in 5-10, or over 1BB per hr. in 10-20.

In regards to the "there is no way you can know this, I dont care how many hands you've played", this is a little silly. As I stated in a earlier post I have played more hands than you could fathom (deep into six figures) in those party stud games. I have also consulted and discussed winrates with some of the best party stud players. The fact that our winrates are very close over time at certain limits is no suprise or coincidence. I can be "very definitive" when I say certain winrates are unattainable.

Mike Emery

[beset7]

my bad <crawling back into lurk mode>.

[kyleb]

I've logged quite a few hands in Stud 8/b on Party and Stars in my day, from 1/2 up to 10/20. Mike Emery is more or less correct - it'd be impossible to average 4-5bb/100 consistantly, even if multitabling. You need to pay attention to all the dead cards, live cards, and opponent tendencies moreso than Hold 'em, and there's no PokerTracker overlay client that helps automate this. As such, playing 3 tables seems to be the upper limit to play at 85% or better of your true potential (in my opinion).

That said, if you only play when the absolute fish are on (*cough*golfmaster *cough*), you can reach some high winning rates - but be prepared for some serious variance in a game like Stud or especially Stud 8/b.

I average around 1-1.5bb/100 at the Stud 8/b tables on Party nowadays over a decent sample size, and I consider that to be very good for my play skill (which I feel is mediocre to slightly above average).

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, if you only play when the absolute fish are on (*cough*golfmaster *cough*),

[/ QUOTE ]
You know when I first started playing stud/8 I thought he was a good player... how I ever managed to start out with a 100BB upswing at 10/20 I'll never know. Thankfully I am much wiser now.

[BTirish]

Does anyone else here still play Stars 1/2 stud hi? I'm curious what other people's winrate is in this game. I only recently started keeping accurate time records to keep track of my winrate... but over the short time I have (10k or so hands) I've been running well, and my rate has been 7 BB/hr. I use pretty strict game selection (50% + to 4th, avg. pot > 6BB). I know that kind of winrate would be unattainable in any 5/10 or 10/20 game... but is a sustained 4-5 BB/hr unrealistic in the Stars 1/2 game?

I have noticed that I'm playing a lot smarter since I started keeping track of this, too /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
11:35 Sun night there's 6 $5-10 games going. 3 avg 6-7 BB's a pot and 3 less than 5. There's never as many good games going compared to full HE tables at $5-10, and it gets twice as tight above that. Which is why banking the nice score that you did isn't realistic on a long term consistent basis. There are no where near the newbies flocking to stud like they are in HE.

I saw a young woman drop $5K of her boyfriends roll playing live $20-40 HE. She has the skill level of a .50-$1 player. You aint getting that in stud.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good post that really gets to the heart of the matter.

The 5/10 games are drying up. I see all sorts of regulars dropping down in limits.. Paigee, McNabbtoTo, Jemoinga, Roland, etc.. The 5/10 game sucks right now, and once the people who are still playing there experience the downswing the others probably have, they'll probably have to find another game.

Before you used to be able to count on 2 maybe three fish at a table. Now, you can find maybe one guy that's maybe playing a few too many hands.

The table that grisgra experienced is not common, and neither is hitting trips and getting called down. Just look at how many 5/10 tables there are that run, and see how many people post in this forum that play in those tables. That's gotta tell you something.. hmmmmm.

Who is this GolfMaster you all speak of? Has he paid for some plasma tv's for some of you?

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Congratulations. You won a lot in one night. Quit your day job and become a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an uncharacteristic tone from you -- having a bad night at the tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes! Terrible. seriously. I am bitter. I hate poker.

[kyleb]

[ QUOTE ]
Who is this GolfMaster you all speak of? Has he paid for some plasma tv's for some of you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes. He only plays Stud 8/b 5/10 - 10/20, from what I know. Keep an eye out for him.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else here still play Stars 1/2 stud hi? I'm curious what other people's winrate is in this game. I only recently started keeping accurate time records to keep track of my winrate... but over the short time I have (10k or so hands) I've been running well, and my rate has been 7 BB/hr. I use pretty strict game selection (50% + to 4th, avg. pot > 6BB). I know that kind of winrate would be unattainable in any 5/10 or 10/20 game... but is a sustained 4-5 BB/hr unrealistic in the Stars 1/2 game?

I have noticed that I'm playing a lot smarter since I started keeping track of this, too /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really keep accurate stats, but think I have a better winrate at stars 2/4 than at 1/2. For some reason, I never seem to do that well at stars 1/2...I think there are more reasonable players at that low level than anywhere else (although it is very w/t). I pretty much stopped playing at stars and go to other sites where there are always more than your requirement of 50% + to 4th, avg. pot > 6BB. Right now i am playing at a 67% to 4th, 10 BB avg. pot.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
The 5/10 games are drying up. I see all sorts of regulars dropping down in limits.. Paigee, McNabbtoTo, Jemoinga, Roland, etc.. The 5/10 game sucks right now, and once the people who are still playing there experience the downswing the others probably have, they'll probably have to find another game.

Before you used to be able to count on 2 maybe three fish at a table. Now, you can find maybe one guy that's maybe playing a few too many hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's just friggin' depressing. I guess I did get mega-lucky.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]

Now that's just friggin' depressing. I guess I did get mega-lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you got lucky. As a 6 max player, you understand this more than anyone. Those tables are wild. One day you double up in 15 minutes, the next day you can't hit a flop with your big cards, and your top pairs are getting sucked out on. I'm sure you're a good stud player if you're able to do so well at 10/20 and 20/40 HE. I want to make it clear that I don't think you're a luck box or anything like that. We all know that from session to session, its mostly about luck, but how you end up in the long run is what's important.. blah blah blah...

I've been playing some 6 max HE myself, and to be honest, I find those games rather fishy. I seem to find a lot more "any two will do" types at those tables than I find at the stud tables. To be honest, a fish at the 5/10 stud tables is more along the line of an "any pair" type who doesn't care about his kicker or completions in front. We need to exploit these guys as much as possible, unfortunately we only have slightly less than a 2:1 advantage against them. Where as in hold 'em, you're fishy opponents are usually dominated and are in trouble if they're going to see the river.

In the past week, I've started playing more hold 'em, and I didn't think it would be as easy to find the fish, but it really is much easier. I think that's why you see people like mike emery leaving stud. There are more bad hold 'em players. There are also more experts too. That's not so bad though, you just try and stay out of their way.

Beer

[Grisgra]

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I've been playing some 6 max HE myself, and to be honest, I find those games rather fishy. I seem to find a lot more "any two will do" types at those tables than I find at the stud tables. To be honest, a fish at the 5/10 stud tables is more along the line of an "any pair" type who doesn't care about his kicker or completions in front. We need to exploit these guys as much as possible, unfortunately we only have slightly less than a 2:1 advantage against them. Where as in hold 'em, you're fishy opponents are usually dominated and are in trouble if they're going to see the river.


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The thing is that while they're sometimes dominated, often they aren't. I'd loove to have a 2:1 advantage over my fishy opponents preflop, but it usually ain't happening -- I may raise with A9s and he may coldcall with his QTo, but even then I'm only a 3:2 favorite. And he's got position on me. (Though I guess you could say the same for Stud when I raise with TTK and he coldcalls with his 779.) In Stud, on the other hand, seems to me that your 3rd street advantage against the fish is bigger. In the games I was playing there were people limping in with monster hands like KQ3r, and in the Stud8 games the number of people seeing 4th with any two low cards (K74, that kind of thing) is simply amazing. (I've put in ~1000 hands at the 3/6 and 5/10 Stud8 at Party, so I have a better feel for the players in that game.)

I did get lucky a couple hands, but the skill differential just from preflop card selection seemed huge, and as I said, I think it's more important in Stud than in HE.


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In the past week, I've started playing more hold 'em, and I didn't think it would be as easy to find the fish, but it really is much easier. I think that's why you see people like mike emery leaving stud. There are more bad hold 'em players. There are also more experts too. That's not so bad though, you just try and stay out of their way.


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Well, I'm certainly not going to disagree with you about the number of fish playing shorthanded limit HE /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Thing is that what makes them fish is not just their poor preflop play, but poor postflop play, and while I may be wrong I feel more "protected" by playing smart preflop in Stud and Stud8 than I do in SH limit HE. My advantage preflop seems greater *and* it just seems easier to decide when to leave and when to stick around.

EDIT: Um, of course, my entire point in this thread was that the Stud fish I was up against sucked not just preflop, but postflop (calling me down all the way after I paired my door card). So I'm not really sure what my point is, after all of this.

Except that it's depressing to hear that the 5/10 Stud players normally aren't nearly as bad as they were last night.

[BeerMoney]

Quote from 7CSFAP:

"Remember in stud, you are rarely drawing thin."

Do some simulations. You'll see what I'm talking about. I think the good players in stud know how to build pots with mega draws, and fold to paired door cards, etc..

And yes, I am finding out rather quickly how much unimproved big cards suck out of position.

[kyleb]

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Quote from 7CSFAP:

"Remember in stud, gamboooooooooooooooooooooooooool."

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FYP.

[Beavis68]

Reminds me of this (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=1666856&page=&view =&sb=5&o=&fpart=) post.

[Hamlet]

I think people are comparing two different win rates.

BB/100 and BB/hr. With multitabling, I can certainly see people winning 4-5 BB/hr. I don't think many people are going to make more than 3 BB/100 in any form of limit poker given the rake. Either you're playing high enough that your opponents are at least semi-competent, or you're playing low enough that the rake eats up quite a bit.

I haven't played the Party 5-10, but I would guess that the 2.3 BB/100 that he and other top Party 5-10 have shared is close to optimal.

Note-- My numbers don't include rake-back or bonuses. If you include those, at certain limits you can approach 4-5 BB/100.

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Well, off the top of my head, I suspect percy6 is easily clearing 4-5BB/hr - the guy 4 tables, and plays rock solid poker. Whenever I sit down, and he's playing, he almost always has more than the standard buy-in, and he almost always increases his stack while I'm playing.

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