King Yao's thoughts on Poker/Trading skill overlap

[Sniper]

Quote from the about the author section of King Yao's Weighing the Odds in Hold'Em Poker...

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After college I found the perfect job for me. A trading job at Susquehanna Partners, which actually uses Poker as part of its training program. Successfully trading derivatives on the exchange floor called for an understanding of math, assessing risk, and reading the opponents (brokers, other trader and customers). The traders often played poker after a full day of trading. It soon became clear to me that the same skill set was required in poker and derivatives trading. I was doing well at both. After eight years, I had accumulated a wide range of trading experiences. I had been a market maker in index equity options, currency options and commodity options. I was also involved with Susquehanna's proprietary hedge fund in mortgage derivatives. Looking back, my trading career was varied and interesting. I was able to go in-depth into many different fields. It was a good training ground for making money gambling.

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Thoughts??

[Paluka]

I work for Susq. Everything he says there is accurate.

[kagame]

what do you need to get an entry level job there?

[imported_bingobazza]

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what do you need to get an entry level job there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I cant tell you how to get in, but I can tell you how to get kicked out....go in and say this....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3260760&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

Bingo

[bob2007]

Having read what you said, I've always considered disclosing my gambling career to employers but it definetly seems very risky, depending on their disposition. What do you guys think? One financial advisor told me not to because of obvious reasons.

I've been successful at poker for the past 3 years, started when I was 17. Pays for tuition. I have also been successful with sportsbetting with 1000% return in the last year.

I'm a 3rd year finance student University of Toronto (argueably most notable in Canada) looking to get into the investment industry. My marks are only average, and I feel that my only options are: stockbroker or working in mutual funds. I'm considering to move to Las Vegas or New York

Any advice is much appreciated.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Having read what you said, I've always considered disclosing my gambling career to employers but it definetly seems very risky, depending on their disposition. What do you guys think? One financial advisor told me not to because of obvious reasons.

I've been successful at poker for the past 3 years, started when I was 17 paying for tuition. I have also been successful with sportsbetting with 1000% return in the last year.

I'm a 3rd year finance student University of Toronto (argueably most notable in Canada) looking to get into the investment industry. My marks are only average, and I feel that my only options are: stockbroker or working in mutual funds. I'm considering to move to Las Vegas or New York

Any advice is much appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stockbroker? Why not try and get a trading job instead?

[bob2007]

Hahaha, ya stockbroker sure sucks. Not sure I'd get hired in trading that was why. I'm sure I'll be sending out resumes none the less.

Hey I always wondered, if the nyse goes electronic with that archipelago thing, what will the traders do? Wouldn't they no longer be needed?

Another question, if I work out west, wouldn't I have to get up at approx 4 a.m. to see all the news before the premarket opens at 8a.m. in new york?

[Paluka]

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Hey I always wondered, if the nyse goes electronic with that archipelago thing, what will the traders do? Wouldn't they no longer be needed?


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I don't know what sort of trading jobs you think there are that would care about this. Derivatives traders would prefer the NYSE was electronic in general.
If you worked in California, you would indeed have to wake up early, but you would be out of work damn early too.

[bob2007]

Aren't the traders at the NYSE stock exchange buying stocks for other people? If the thing goes electronic I was thinking those people wouldn't be needed nomore because the electronic system would just match buyers and sellers. Or maybe that's not how it works?

[Paluka]

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Aren't the traders at the NYSE stock exchange buying stocks for other people? If the thing goes electronic I was thinking those people wouldn't be needed nomore because the electronic system would just match buyers and sellers. Or maybe that's not how it works?

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Those are brokers, not traders.

[Sniper]

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Having read what you said, I've always considered disclosing my gambling career to employers but it definetly seems very risky, depending on their disposition.... I've been successful at poker for the past 3 years, started when I was 17. Pays for tuition.

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Saying "I paid my own way thru college by playing poker", would generally be a plus to many employers. Like any experience you have, its all the way that you spin it. Being able to talk about risk management and evaluating alternatives based on EV are all pluses.

[Sniper]

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Hahaha, ya stockbroker sure sucks.

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A stockbroker is a salesman position, and a job that is definately less attractive now that more people are eductaing themselves to trading/investing for themselves online.

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Hey I always wondered, if the nyse goes electronic with that archipelago thing, what will the traders do? Wouldn't they no longer be needed?

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When the NYSE goes all electronic, the traders will just "go upstairs". They will not be needed on the trading floor, but they will still serve a useful purpose. Just take a look at the structure of nasdaq trading.

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Another question, if I work out west, wouldn't I have to get up at approx 4 a.m. to see all the news before the premarket opens at 8a.m. in new york?

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Your schedule out west would definately be different than your schedule in New York.

[bob2007]

Ya that's exactly how I felt. Needed someone to confirm.

[coolhandsun]

I'd agree a hundred percent with the relation in skills between trading and poker. I trade for an options market making firm on the west coast. SUSQ actually pulled most of their operation from our floor, but I know a former trader or two from there.

The statement about the "playing poker" with brokers and traders especially rings true. Each trade/quote feels like a hand of poker where neither side wants to expose their holding (order/position). But both sides have small tells. Trying to get the best price or keep an order on your floor fells like eeking out extra big bets. A sense of odds, risk, and value also benefit both very well.

As options trading (and trading in general) goes more electronic, making markets feels a lot like multitabling online poker. Juggling 100+ books involves a fair amount of multi-tasking and staying on top of many situations at a time while avoiding all the possible pitfalls, traps, and mistakes.

Oddly enough, a lot of the guys in my pit play poker during the day. I'm constantly joking on how psyched they are when they pick up a pot, while their being distracted just cost them plenty of opportunities.

I know I hope NYSE goes more electronic. That was def the intention of the merger. Nothing sucks more than having a specialist lean on your stock orders, especially selling short.

Working market hours on the west coast has its ups and downs. I have a hard time going out during the week as I have to be at work by 5:30. But on the flip side I can walk out the door at 1:30 if I want and have 7hrs of daylight. It allowed me to do things like coach a lacrosse team that I never would have been able to do otherwise.

And about exposing your poker to your boss....I actually had "blackjack card counting" on my resume when I applied to my firm out of college.


Gavin

Weren't Victor Sperandeo, Stanley Druckenmiller, and Jeff Yass also great poker players?

[DavidC]

I'm a moron, what are derrivatives? I mean, I know equities, I know bonds, and while I don't know all the different types of options contracts, I know roughly what they do... but what the hell are derivatives? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sniper]

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I'm a moron, what are derrivatives?

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When you trade stocks, you actually own a piece of a business.

When you trade options or futures, for example, you don't OWN anything except the RIGHT to possibly own something, hence the term derivative.

Kinda like making a side bet with a friend on a poker hand that both of you are watching. You have no actual stake in the pot, but you've made a derivative bet on the outcome.

[DavidC]

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I'm a moron, what are derrivatives?

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When you trade stocks, you actually own a piece of a business.

When you trade options or futures, for example, you don't OWN anything except the RIGHT to possibly own something, hence the term derivative.

Kinda like making a side bet with a friend on a poker hand that both of you are watching. You have no actual stake in the pot, but you've made a derivative bet on the outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot man.

[Python49]

Can someone explain more in depth what a day trader does? What is a typical day for a day trader like and how much money can they expect to make. I am in college... do they teach any of this stuff? Or is this just another field taht im interested in which college doesnt help with at all (similar to real estate and investing). Do you need to have a degree for this job? I'd probably have one in finance. Is this job stressful like poker? Im very interested.

[Zygote]

Ever think about financial planning?

I live in the GTA and would be in my 3rd year of finance at western had i not dropped out to play poker. Considering i hadn't gone into poker, financial planning is probably what i would've done.

[lastsamurai]

[ QUOTE ]
Having read what you said, I've always considered disclosing my gambling career to employers but it definetly seems very risky, depending on their disposition. What do you guys think? One financial advisor told me not to because of obvious reasons.

I've been successful at poker for the past 3 years, started when I was 17. Pays for tuition. I have also been successful with sportsbetting with 1000% return in the last year.

I'm a 3rd year finance student University of Toronto (argueably most notable in Canada) looking to get into the investment industry. My marks are only average, and I feel that my only options are: stockbroker or working in mutual funds. I'm considering to move to Las Vegas or New York

Any advice is much appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind alot of people in the OUTSIDE world still think poker is a form of gambling and will look at you as a degenerate. As for being a stock broker..if you like to sell and are good on the phone...yes go for it. Its a tough grind being a broker...you have your ups and downs..and get to the point where you are wondering where your best intersts are....is it to make your client money or is it to buy that new CL. And this is true for all levels of this industry.... Its a tough industry but as the saying goes...to the victor comes the spoils...... /images/graemlins/wink.gif


oh btw... Trading stocks is easier than HOLD EM.

[bob2007]

Ya I've certainly thought of it. Kinda keeping my options open. Going to a job fair, hopefully I can impress some recruiters. Maybe I'll just hedge my bets and let half of em know about poker and not the other half : ).

[Paluka]

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Ya I've certainly thought of it. Kinda keeping my options open. Going to a job fair, hopefully I can impress some recruiters. Maybe I'll just hedge my bets and let half of em know about poker and not the other half : ).

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I really think the window for thinking poker may help you is closed anyway. Every single jackass on earth plays poker now, or at least claims to. I think at this point you are better off not mentioning it since the there isn't really any upside anymore.

[Sniper]

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I think at this point you are better off not mentioning it since the there isn't really any upside anymore.

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The upside is being able to display your skills at money/risk management in a practical rather then theoretical context!

[Paluka]

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I think at this point you are better off not mentioning it since the there isn't really any upside anymore.

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The upside is being able to display your skills at money/risk management in a practical rather then theoretical context!

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My point was that so many people claim they are "poker players" now that saying that you are one does not distinguish you at all.

i would think all recruiters would not take poker playing seriously.

[bob2007]

I certainly agree. Maybe I need to give them a sense of how much I make - most likely more than the recruiter : ).

[Paluka]

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I certainly agree. Maybe I need to give them a sense of how much I make - most likely more than the recruiter : ).

[/ QUOTE ]

that will just make you look like a jackass, if they believe you. poker players are mostly liars, and any recruiter probably thinks worse of them than I do.

[TBag]

IMHO, I still think putting something like "played poker to cover college tuition" on your resume = +EV.

[Sniper]

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Maybe I need to give them a sense of how much I make

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Its not about how much you make at poker... its the application of money/risk management SKILLS that is the most relevant!

As a daytrader, you don't need a degree. I think being a good poker player will help you more than a B.A. or B.S. from a top institution. That said, college courses will definitely help you. Take some classes in statistics and programming and psychology. Potential profits, while probably the last thing you should think of, have no cap. I have seen daily P&L averages of $500 - $5000.


Depending on what your strategy and product is, daytrading varies. For example, you have some intraday swing traders who look to go for the relatively larger intraday moves but still close out all positions by end of day. These guys are probably adjusting now though as intraday volatility is sucky, arguably partly due to the rise in program trading(basically mean reversion stuff that cuts short any move).
You have scalpers. Each has his/her own time frame. Some scalpers literally go for 1 or 2 ticks(in futures) or for a few pennies(in stocks) or a few pips(currencies) on huge size or try to play the (bid/ask) spread making game effectively acting like a mm. They do this over and over however typically they are most active during the first and last regular trading hour. I'd avoid this though, black boxes dominate this area. Other scalpers hold longer, tend to use 5 minute charts as their main screen. This is probably the best place for you to be as a daytrader now. I prefer technicals over fundamentals, particularly as I trade index futs.

At the end of the day, this game is mostly mental and nothing else.

I don't think a recruiter will be impressed by putting something like this on your resume, but I don't think it could hurt either. Most recruiters don't pay attention to these things, they screen you based on pre-set criteria like school name, major, GPA, impressive extracurriculars(i.e. played for univ football team), work experience. The poker thing might help you in an actual interview with a trader when he starts asking you about taking risks etc. I believe this helped me when I landed a job at a hedge fund(not there anymore).

As an aside, I think I listed "poker" as one of my hobbies toward the end of my resume. Maybe I even mentioned it in my cover letter for some trading jobs. Consequently, I had heard the Susq guys were pretty big on poker, and I was offered an interview there but never took it. Don't know if they cared about the poker thing or not.

[ccwhoelse?]

A friend of mine finished 5th in one of the WSOP NL hold'em events.

He put it on his resume and applied to Merrill Lynch. He got called for the interview and his interviewer told him it was the only reason he got called.

They interviewed him and gave him a bunch of quant tests and now he is trading equities.

[DeezNuts]

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I work for Susq. Everything he says there is accurate.

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Have you worked at Susq. for a long time? I interned on the options floor in SF during college. Do you know Rob Ring and the boys over there?

DN

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I work for Susq. Everything he says there is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you worked at Susq. for a long time? I interned on the options floor in SF during college. Do you know Rob Ring and the boys over there?

DN

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never met Rob Ring, but his brother Howard just passed away this weekend. Very depressing for such a young guy to go.