QQ - bubble hand, shorty allin and a call....

[Scuba Chuck]

Blinds 150/300

UTG 740
Button 5590
SB 2190
BB (hero) 1330

Preflop: HERO dealth Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG is allin, Button calls, Hero....

What line do you take here?

[1C5]

You can't fold QQ here. That much I know.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold QQ here. That much I know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I had to put it on the poll as an option, because, technically it is.

[jayb0ne]

Might want to consider just calling, because if the big stack had a hand like, Ace piece or pocket 7's, he'd probably overpush to ensure he gets heads up with the short stack. His call is suspicious because it sort of makes it seem like he wants to see if he can maybe get another person in the hand. I'd call and play it cautious.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Might want to consider just calling, because if the big stack had a hand like, Ace piece or pocket 7's, he'd probably overpush to ensure he gets heads up with the short stack. His call is suspicious because it sort of makes it seem like he wants to see if he can maybe get another person in the hand. I'd call and play it cautious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess I should qualify this buyin. It's a $33. And I think you're giving villain too much credit with a wanted call.

[psyduck]

you have to push here. If the big stack is a donk, then he could be calling with a wide variety of hands, meaning that the shortie has a good chance to double up. In that case, you'll become the short stack next hand.

You're getting great odds (you're the BB here), your hand is great, and you'd like another possibility to eliminate UTG besides the big stack.

Even if big stack eliminates both of you, you get 3rd

[utmt40]

push

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
you have to push here. If the big stack is a donk, then he could be calling with a wide variety of hands, meaning that the shortie has a good chance to double up. In that case, you'll become the short stack next hand.

You're getting great odds (you're the BB here), your hand is great, and you'd like another possibility to eliminate UTG besides the big stack.

Even if big stack eliminates both of you, you get 3rd

[/ QUOTE ]

What benefit do I gain by pushing here, against the potential benefit of a stop n go?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have to push here. If the big stack is a donk, then he could be calling with a wide variety of hands, meaning that the shortie has a good chance to double up. In that case, you'll become the short stack next hand.

You're getting great odds (you're the BB here), your hand is great, and you'd like another possibility to eliminate UTG besides the big stack.

Even if big stack eliminates both of you, you get 3rd

[/ QUOTE ]

What benefit do I gain by pushing here, against the potential benefit of a stop n go?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need a stop n go here...your hand is plenty good. Just get it allin 3 way with your monster....

Or you can putz around post flop with a huge pot that can't be played very well unless you have a strong read on villian.

Yugoslav

Noob question...

What if you call and then: 1) push if flop comes unders 2) check/fold to big stack if there are overcards.

By doing this wont you better ensure yourself of a money finish? I doubt the big stack will bluff with someone already all in.

Im sure this is an idiot play cuz none of the smart ppl have sugessted it, plz tell me y.Thanks in advance,Brian.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Noob question...

What if you call and then: 1) push if flop comes unders 2) check/fold to big stack if there are overcards.

By doing this wont you better ensure yourself of a money finish? I doubt the big stack will bluff with someone already all in.

Im sure this is an idiot play cuz none of the smart ppl have sugessted it, plz tell me y.Thanks in advance,Brian.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian, no matter what cards hit, ur not folding this hand unfortunately. IMO, you only gain equity by a stop n go is if villain has an underpair (like 55), and has the potential werewithall (sp?) to fold. IMO, this scenario isn't likely, so let's say I have a 5-20% chance this works. Furthermore, I think this increases if villain has a smaller stack, so the likelihood is far closer to 1-9% chance here.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't need a stop n go here...your hand is plenty good. Just get it allin 3 way with your monster....


[/ QUOTE ]

[kiffl]

Push, and I don't think it's ever close.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Brian, no matter what cards hit, ur not folding this hand unfortunately. IMO, you only gain equity by a stop n go is if villain has an underpair (like 55), and has the potential werewithall (sp?) to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The times he has 33 and calls your push right now > the times he has 33 and folds on the flop = the times he has 33, an ace hits, you check/fold to his minbet and feel enormously stupid when UTG's A9 is the best hand and you lose about a thousand Sklansky chips on the deal.

[Jman28]

This is interesting because you aren't exactly sure what you want the villain to do. It depends strongly on his and the shorty's hands. If the big stack has AJ, and the shorty has A6, do you want the big stack to fold a 89K flop?

I think this is a math problem, but I think it's clear that you would definitely not want him to fold.

On one hand, you don't want the big stack to suck out on you, but you do want him to beat the shorty if you don't have him (shorty) beat.

This seems like it would be a pretty complex problem factoring in each of their hand ranges, and probably will not make a big difference. Would be interesting if anyone can figure out how to 'solve' it.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting because you aren't exactly sure what you want the villain to do. It depends strongly on his and the shorty's hands. If the big stack has AJ, and the shorty has A6, do you want the big stack to fold a 89K flop?

I think this is a math problem, but I think it's clear that you would definitely not want him to fold.

On one hand, you don't want the big stack to suck out on you, but you do want him to beat the shorty if you don't have him (shorty) beat.

This seems like it would be a pretty complex problem factoring in each of their hand ranges, and probably will not make a big difference. Would be interesting if anyone can figure out how to 'solve' it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would definately be calling shorty's allin, so I see this point is moot.

[Scuba Chuck]

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Brian, no matter what cards hit, ur not folding this hand unfortunately. IMO, you only gain equity by a stop n go is if villain has an underpair (like 55), and has the potential werewithall (sp?) to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The times he has 33 and calls your push right now > the times he has 33 and folds on the flop = the times he has 33, an ace hits, you check/fold to his minbet and feel enormously stupid when UTG's A9 is the best hand and you lose about a thousand Sklansky chips on the deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure I said this earlier, all my chips are going in on the flop no matter what. And I'm first to act, so I'm not too worried about a mini-bet.

[adanthar]

If all your chips go in on an AKx flop it removes any reason to not push PF. I literally just don't see a single benefit of not pushing now.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
If all your chips go in on an AKx flop it removes any reason to not push PF. I literally just don't see a single benefit of not pushing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

He gets to do a sweet stop n go?

Man those are so sweet!!

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If all your chips go in on an AKx flop it removes any reason to not push PF. I literally just don't see a single benefit of not pushing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only see one reason why you make this argument. Because if both villains share a card, like an ace.

[adanthar]

Nah. It's because you know you are at least calling and probably have 70%+ equity in any side pot, so why not create one right now instead of potentially making one of the two of you fold?

Pushing right now with a 70/30 edge is +240cEV from the side pot alone and I don't see a reason why calling is gonna be any better.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brian, no matter what cards hit, ur not folding this hand unfortunately. IMO, you only gain equity by a stop n go is if villain has an underpair (like 55), and has the potential werewithall (sp?) to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The times he has 33 and calls your push right now > the times he has 33 and folds on the flop = the times he has 33, an ace hits, you check/fold to his minbet and feel enormously stupid when UTG's A9 is the best hand and you lose about a thousand Sklansky chips on the deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely see a huge pitfall here, thxs, but...

Wouldnt the big stack want to eliminate the short stack as much as you? Wouldnt he want to show down anything instead of bluffing? Or am I assuming too much?