Deffense against the semi-bluff raise

[FletchJr.]

I've been playing in some pretty fierce games lately because I can only play online at the moment.
Anyways, I think one of the biggest part of my game that needs work is defense against the semi-bluff raise. Lots of times i bet into a field of maybe 2,3 or 4 players get raised by one, the rest fold and I'm left with some difficult situations. once in a while, I'll think the guy is semi-bluff raising me and I'll re-raise him back only to get called down by something like middle pair. On the other side of the coin sometimes I'll bet be raised, think it's a semi-bluff raise, re-raise him, only to get raised on the turn again. And sometimes i'll give someone credit for the legit hand then, they will take the free card. So I would like to know some factors you guys take into consideration when figuring out the best deffense against the semi-bluff raise.

[PokerPrince]

That's one of the best aspects of a semi-bluff raise. There is no defense to it.

PokerPrince

[Soh]

Many times, but not always, the best thing you can do is to fold.

Soh

[FletchJr.]

I got a solution, after reading HFAP again for about the 5th time. You can bet into the flop raiser on 4th street if you're not sure you have the best, and then fold to a raise. Which makes perfect sense, no one is usuually going to be semi-bluff raising twice. I think It's great deffense against the semi-bluff flop raise, and if the guy is legit, you can fold to a raise on the turn, and check the river if no scare card comes down, this may also induce if he's got a broken draw. Now, only one left, what to do agaisnt the semi-bluff raise on the turn, geez i hate bad position.

[SoBeDude]

Even more directly, if you think the raise is a semi-bluff you can simply re-raise right on the flop as well.

-Scott

[SunTzu68]

To answer the question you asked in your post (some of the factors I take into consideration in defense of the semi-bluff raise). This is a perfect example of playing the player instead of the cards (assuming you are heads up, which in your examples it sounds as if you are.) How advanced is the player you are against, is he capable of a semi-bluff checkraise? How tight or loose is the player? How aggressive/passive is the player? What does the other player think of me (does he think I am loose and will call? Does he think I am tight and will probably fold? etc.)? It can turn into a complicated problem, but these are some of the things that I am thinking in that situation.

Hope it helped...and good luck!

[Tommy Angelo]

"Lots of times i bet into a field of maybe 2,3 or 4 players get raised by one, the rest fold and I'm left with some difficult situations."

The best way to fix this is to avoid these situations altogether and it's easy to do. All you have to do is not play middle cards from up front or from the blinds. You will no longer have to defend against a semi-bluff (whatever that is). The roles will reverse. When you have top par top kicker, over and over, it is the bluffer who has no defense.

Tommy

[SittingBull]

Semi-bluff "turn" raiser,Huh?? Wow! If there are several of these types at your table,look for another table-fast!
The competition will be too tough--even for a good solid player.
Well,if U can't avoid these types at your level and your judgment is seriously impaired to the point that U are confused about what to do when an opponent sometimes use a "semi-bluff 'turn' raise",then U need to resort to some sort of "Game Theory" strategy. Online,there are very little "tells' that U can obtain. However,in a B&M,U will most likely never use any "Game Theory" approach. There will usually be enough tells such as body language,betting patterns,in what manner your opponent is betting,his general demeanor,Etc.for U to build enough confidence in your judgment to make good decisions most of the time. Hence,"Game Theory" strategy usually is not relevent at a B&M.
On the contrary,"Caro's Tells" become very relevent at a B&M,but usually irrelevant Online.
To solve your "semi-bluff raiser" problem,READ AND STUDY"Theory of Poker",where D. Sklansky has a section on "Game Theory".
Also READ AND STUDY other Game Theory/Poker related material.
Tommy implied playing a little tigher game. That's a good suggestion. However,you will reduce your overall profit by doing so.
Folding too much will also reduce your overall profit.
Tommy is correct when he stated that a player who frequently bluffs will be the big loser overtime. But what if a group of players bluff at an approximate mathematically proper # of times?
In this case,your only recourse would be some "Game Theory" strategy unless U are willing to reduce your overall profit.
Happy pokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[elysium]

hi fletch
well, let's see here. o.k. , you're running up against a good tricky opponent. i think that there is only one or two of this type player on the site, is that correct? o.k., what you must do is remember these two opponents fletch because you need to make them more predictable before the expensive rounds.

what you must do is is stay out of their way unless you flop solidly. what's happened here is that they have gotten control because they saw that you didn't have a system in place to make them more predictable. well, you'll have to fold earlier than you would otherwise, not play stronger with a holding that can only beat a semi-bluff.

these opponents you're up against are very tricky. they know when you're playing with cards that only beat their typical semi-bluff. so you need to make them more predictable. you do this betting into your opponent strongly on the pre-flop and flop with big cards that flop solidly. go for a check-raise on the flop when you hit solidly. and reraise of course.

now, if after you have hit him solidly a few times, kinda zapped him on the flop with raises and check-raises with solid holdings, your opponent bets into you strongly on the turn, fold. this is the dangerous part that people usually mess up. whatever you do, don't make an opponent more predictable by chgeck-raising and then raise his turn bet. don't even call his turn bet, unless you can beat what the board is representing. now, you'll have to use some common sesnse here because if you have the nut straight and the flush completes ( three flush cards on board), you don't necessarily fold when he shows strength. you would call his raise here or check and call if he gave you good reason to think he didn't have the flush. but, if he fears you now because of your strongly betting into him, and he had done something to suggest he's on the flush draw, you can fold.

use common sense when folding to the now more predictable player. realize when he fears your raise. tend to fold or slow down considerably when he plays back at you after you have bet into him strongly a few times, showing down stong holdings.

[Soh]

You may also want to read The Theory of Poker. It has a cahpter called "Defense Against the Semi-Bluff."

Soh

[ACPlayer]

If you are getting called down by middle pairs you should be making money as no doubt you have top pair.

Seems to me like you are betting second best hands getting raised by players correctly reading you and then letting you bluff off your money.

If the other players are good players, they semi-bluff only occaisonally in full ring games (other than the overused free card attempt routine).

Theory of poker has a good chapter on the defense against semi-bluff.

[FletchJr.]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
However,in a B&amp;M,U will most likely never use any "Game Theory" approach. There will usually be enough tells such as body language,betting patterns,in what manner your opponent is betting,his general demeanor,Etc.for U to build enough confidence in your judgment to make good decisions most of the time. Hence,"Game Theory" strategy usually is not relevent at a B&amp;M.


[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, for the advice, but i totally disagree with these statements. How can "Game Theory" not be relevant in poker, you must know game theory to decide the best logical decision. I think an understanding of Game theory, mathematics, and physcology or poker, will win the money. Tells may influence your decisions but i really don't think that they will be the biggest influence on your decisions.
Also, you can pick up betting patterns on internet poker as well.

Even though this response seems rude, I don't mean to sound like an A$$. I do appreciate your responses, all of them.

[FletchJr.]

Thanks all for the advice, I think i need to study my players more closely and get a better understanding of reverse implied odds. Once I work on those two parts of my game, i think my results will really improve. Back to the books.

[tewall]

Your post shows one of the practical advantages of position, the semi-bluff raise. This play is particularly effective on the turn, especially when you (having position) were going to call your opponent down anyway.

As a defence, you can semi-bluff re-raise when you have re-draws to your hand. If you don't have many outs, then just check/call the rest of the way unless you're pretty sure you're beat, in which case you can fold the turn. By pretty sure I mean more than 2/3.

Giving a free card heads up isn't such a big deal because it's usually not that likely that someone who's behind you will overtake you. The mistake you want to avoid is folding when you are ahead. That's a much bigger mistake than giving up a free card. If you bet the turn because you're not sure where you are, you put yourself in a difficult position if your opponent raises. OTOH if you check, there's a good chance you're opponent will bet rather than take a free card if he is behind you (which is usually a stronger play -- that is, you've shown weakness by checking, so with a drawing hand he should often try to win the pot right away by betting, so you get your bet anyway).

Summarizing:
1) Semi-bluff re-raise him back with outs
2) Check/call on the turn and river

This is of course player dependent, and even against the same opponent one must vary ones play. And this suggestion is for the specific situation when you have a made hand with overcards out against you. It is also assuming your opponent is a decent heads up player. Against weaker players you can take the lead, keep betting unless raised, in which case you fold, not having to worry about laying down a better hand.

[Robk]

"How can "Game Theory" not be relevant in poker, you must know game theory to decide the best logical decision."

As Mason seems fond of pointing out lately, and as Sklansky argues in TOP, it is a rare occasion when you resort to game theory to make a poker decision. (Check out the recent Ciaffone thread.) You should reread the TOP section if you think your poker strategy should be based on Game Theory (it also has a few things to say about defending the semibluff /forums/images/icons/wink.gif )

"I think an understanding of Game theory, mathematics, and physcology or poker, will win the money"

I think sound poker strategy and observation of your opponents will win the money. I don't think the things you listed are anywhere near as important as knowing how to "play well".

[SoBeDude]

I think many people misunderstand what "game theory" is.

I think they misinterpret it to mean the theory of how properly to play a given "game". That is inaccurate and misleading.

it is a rare occasion when you resort to game theory to make a poker decision.

You are right. You should only resort to game theory when you have no other recourse. Learning to play well has to be a far greater concern.

-Scott