General thoughts on Party STEPS requested

[MicroBob]

Just curious what others think of the Party STEPS and mini-steps.

I've been fooling around with them a little bit and find the competition to be fairly soft (as expected I suppose).

I think they are just as viable an income-maker as regular SNG's (or limit ring-games). Anyone agree/disagree?

[Freudian]

Entering at what level? 1 or 5?

[Oluwafemi]

can you take the money and run when you advance to a higher Step?

[citanul]

no.

[citanul]

personally i like entering around step 3 or 4 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

OP,

many people like to go on and on about how they are rake traps.

they are actually quite profitable if you adjust well to the various structures.

little work has been done on exactly how profitable, and very few people here play them as their mane game, or close to it, if any, who don't buy in directly to step 5.

citanul

[MicroBob]

possibly anywhere from 2 through 4. right now just fooling around with step 2's.


The biggest problem is that you wind up getting stuck with some step 1's of course that are hardly even worth playing (from a time/benefit standpoint).

I'm just playing 1 or 2 of these at a time in addition to whatever other games I might be playing at the time.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
personally i like entering around step 3 or 4 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

OP,

many people like to go on and on about how they are rake traps.

they are actually quite profitable if you adjust well to the various structures.

little work has been done on exactly how profitable, and very few people here play them as their mane game, or close to it, if any, who don't buy in directly to step 5.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a fair amount of success at Steps ( I won $$$ ) and I really enjoyed the big paydays from Step 5 winners...I built-up a pretty good B/R....then, like a nincompoop, blew it all off by making direct buys into S-4's & S-5's...Fun while it lasted /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[citanul]

yeah, for anyone whose bankroll doesn't permit them to buy in direct to step 5s (that's most of everyone) or whose brains won't (that's most of the rest of everyone) winning a step 5 is like, the greatest thing that can happen outside of a MTT.

citanul

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

many people like to go on and on about how they are rake traps.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes.
But if I'm not tying up too much of my money then I don't really see what the difference is.
If I play regular SNG's...then I'm going to KEEP playing SNG's and will keep paying rake anyway.

Obviously I have the option to stop playing the regular SNG's and take my money with me whenever I like (and I can't do that with STEPS)....but i play...and am going to keep playing.


Again..the only rake-trap aspect that bugs me is the mini-step 1's that you get stuck with where you have those damn 5+1's (I'm playing off one of them right now for example).


Well...I might stay with these for a few days...or I might give up on them sooner than that.
But I will not be buying drectly to the Step 5's or mini-step 5's.

If you find the competition soft, how wrong can it be to play them? More variance though compared to regular stn'gs.

[stupidsucker]

You have to know you are a winner at the final step in order to make the rest worth it.

Everything I have studied about steps makes them worthless in my eyes unless you can afford to buy in to step 5.
Step 1 will always seem like a waste of time unless you can run them in the background with virtualy no brain power towards them at all.


To each his own. No doubt the are + EV in the long run if you play each level correctly, but $/hour is better elsewhere and the variance would be rather large in steps.

[Scuba Chuck]

Micro, see these two discussed posts from some time ago:

How are the steps a raketrap? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2330458&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

Make your own STEPs (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2330930&page=4&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[MicroBob]

thanks.

will check those out.


My KQs hit it's flush and ran into Axs higher-flush.
Stuck with another freaking Step 1.

Looks like I'm not going to be moving too fast on these.

Will continue to play them out while playing other games just to see how I like them.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks.

will check those out.


My KQs hit it's flush and ran into Axs higher-flush.
Stuck with another freaking Step 1.

Looks like I'm not going to be moving too fast on these.

Will continue to play them out while playing other games just to see how I like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Micro, you have an interesting situation ahead of you. You can either come to the conclusion that we already have, or continue on your path and come to that same conclusion. Here are the bullet points of the two posts:

1: The steps are a shark trap.
2: The vig isn't really that much different, than if you had created your own steps (or just navigated through the SNG buyins, moving up as your bankroll improved).

The only benefit that I have discovered about the STEPs is that it keeps you on the path of climbing buyins.

[yimyammer]

Well I have a slightly different take on them. I play them for the practice and the challenge. You can get a hell of a lot of play out of $6.

It seems to be helping and the threat of getting knocked down to step one is so terrible (IMHO-because step-1 is one of the hardest to get out of because only 1st place advances)that you will do you best to play your a-game.

I guess I still suck, I must have played 50 or more of these and cant seem to get past step-4. I'm at my 4th step-4 and all this play has cost me $18.

I do sometimes wonder if this is making my game any better. Kind of like kicking the crap out of the 3/6 game but never moving up doesnt make you a better player at the higher limits (for all the smartasses ready to pounce, Im not implying that I'm kicking ass in the mini-steps).

[yid3655]

Managed to get to a Step 5 from Step 1 at the beginning of this month. Was the most nervous I have ever been playing a tournament, Nutzrealbig was to my right and I actually knocked him out /images/graemlins/smile.gif, but yes as Citanul says it was brilliant to play at that level!

I would certainly recommend that anyone who hasnt played them should give them a try, even if they are only playing for fun

[Jman28]

If you are very good at adjusting to structure differences, and noticing how others adjust (incorrectly usually) and exploiting it, I think the steps can be very profitable.

I also have a feeling that while the buyin of a STEP 5 is 5x that of a 215, a reasonable sustainable ROI there is about half that at the 215s, making them much more profitable, if you can handle enourmous swings.

I may take a run at them once I get some rakeback setup at party.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I still suck, I must have played 50 or more of these and cant seem to get past step-4. I'm at my 4th step-4 and all this play has cost me $18.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can't fault your opinion about learning for less. I do potentially see a flaw in your strategy. The STEP 4 skill level is far more than a $10+1 buyin.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

many people like to go on and on about how they are rake traps.

they are actually quite profitable if you adjust well to the various structures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think these two statements are incompatible. I think they are a rake trap - plenty of math to suggest this, whereas I've never seen a good argument to the contrary - but, that said, because the payout structure is substantially different (more super satellitish) it is possible that the increased profit stemming from lack of knowledge about the structure can make up for the rake difference.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

many people like to go on and on about how they are rake traps.

they are actually quite profitable if you adjust well to the various structures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think these two statements are incompatible. I think they are a rake trap - plenty of math to suggest this, whereas I've never seen a good argument to the contrary - but, that said, because the payout structure is substantially different (more super satellitish) it is possible that the increased profit stemming from lack of knowledge about the structure can make up for the rake difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gump, in the two links that I posted, there is plenty of compelling math to show you the contrary. Furthermore, if you search the archives for other posts made that same week, you'll find some more math, better than mine.

As I have said before, I think the STEPs are a shark trap, not a rake trap.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Gump, in the two links that I posted, there is plenty of compelling math to show you the contrary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted pretty extensively in the first of those two threads. In particular, I made this (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2331242&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) post, which demonstrates pretty clearly the mechanism by which an average player expects to do worse in STEP tournaments because of the additional rake. I've seen no rebuttals of this, just you talking about "shark traps" over and over again. Can you directly refute my argument?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Gump, in the two links that I posted, there is plenty of compelling math to show you the contrary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted pretty extensively in the first of those two threads. In particular, I made this (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2331242&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) post, which demonstrates pretty clearly the mechanism by which an average player expects to do worse in STEP tournaments because of the additional rake. I've seen no rebuttals of this, just you talking about "shark traps" over and over again. Can you directly refute my argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man, I'm not up for it AGAIN. LOL.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the key difference is that in climbing the SNG ladder, you have the option at each point of getting out. The only real equity you have in the "simple Steps" that I outlined, as well as in the real thing, is getting all the way to the top to get money. When I'm playing multiple SNGs, I pay tons of rake, but lots of new equity comes into the system too, so it balances out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote from you seems to me that we are at a standstill in this argument, that is a few months stale.

Bah, I have more ideas now, but I don't want to rehash.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to know you are a winner at the final step in order to make the rest worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't. You just have to lose less than your gains from the other Steps, and that's pretty bulletproof. In the current Step format, given a large amount of time and a near zero BR, I could and would build my roll back up within a month or so, and I don't think I'm a winner at S5 (I might be break even but I'm not trying it).

Most of this is because folding every hand until enough people bust at lower limits = freeroll 9/10 of the time.

[MicroBob]

i asked somebody else about them via e-mail and he commented that a big problem with the steps is that the step 5's are populated with the best sng players just buying-in directly and they play that format and structure all day long.

but he also said that it's a great deal for them because it also provides a constant supply of 'fish'. so if there are fish for them then there are fish for me too I would think.



anyway, I think I can make some of the necessary adjustments in these.
I have done pretty well in the Stars WCOOP and EPT (and WSOP) satellites...both the turbo's and the regular length ones.
And those are ALL about adjusting to the format differences and exploiting those who just don't "get it".

That's where i think the value in the steps could be.


However...so far I have been doing pretty badly in them and I have a pretty strong feeling I will not be staying on these for very long.

Just experimenting with them while also playing other games (including the PPM qualifiers and the Stars T$ and W$ satellites).


One advantage on the STEPS and the PPM qualifiers is the high percentage of players who have very little clue what the pay-outs are (this is more true for the PPM's then the STEPS though....most of the STEPS players seem to know what place gets what prize...even if it isn't always reflected in their play).

[Python49]

I've made it to step 5 about 5 times and bought in at step 2 each time. I only dropped out twice... and made it to step 5 each other time.. i found them to be very easy.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I've made it to step 5 about 5 times and bought in at step 2 each time. I only dropped out twice... and made it to step 5 each other time.. i found them to be very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

How easy was STEP 5?

What stakes player would you guys compare the step 5 players to?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
What stakes player would you guys compare the step 5 players to?

[/ QUOTE ]

STEP 5 players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What stakes player would you guys compare the step 5 players to?

[/ QUOTE ]

STEP 5 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I think you basically asked the same question at the same time I did.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What stakes player would you guys compare the step 5 players to?

[/ QUOTE ]

STEP 5 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I think you basically asked the same question at the same time I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but i think his point when he asked how easy step 5 was was semi sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

citanul

ps: the step 5s are an interesting thing. you can catch them somewhat fishy, though most of them that run are at least 4 regulars. often more. the play of the average regular is very good. there are, however, regulars who are not good at all. even some who are scared money on the bubble. basically all the fish default their way into the "standard" twoplustwo strategy of being incredibly weak tight early, and get exploited by the good regulars, until bubble time, where push ranges get extreme. many of the regulars are quite willing to push any two cards on the bubble, even in spots where doing so i not +ev. so there usually are fewer spots for the other players (heroes) to push first in. some of the regulars also make "bad" calls somewhat constantly. meh. i dunno, i've never had a problem with em, but i will also acknowledge that they are quite difficult tournaments.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]


little work has been done on exactly how profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's get some assumptions about finishes at each level for the 1 and 2 table steps, and I will run some monte carlo's on entering at various levels. Also, if there are other stats than the net, roi, entries to positive for good, maximum negative you want let me know.