Hand Reading 101

[RockLobster]

Hi All--

My name is Rock and I'm a lousy hand-reader. There, I said it.

I have some ideas on what I should be doing in order to improve this critical skill, but I could use some guidance from those of you who have already struggled with this and found a path to success. I think I need a game plan to follow, because I find this to be overwhelming.

My first step:
- Note all pre-flop action.

That's it. This is what I'm working on right now. Every hand. Who raised, who limped, and what position are they in. Follow this and put people on ranges of hands, and see where they go from there.

I know this sounds really basic, but I have to start somewhere. I've read (and reread) HEPFAP, TOP, and WLLH (and a few other unmentionables).

While other areas of my game have improved greatly over the last few months, I'm still pretty much playing my cards only. I must improve in hand-reading if I'm ever going to take it up a notch.

How did you guys hone this skill? I play anywhere from 300 - 1000 online hands per week... I want to use this time to drill myself on the needed skills.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[bernie]

watch how opponents play 'types' of hands.

how they play draws, sets, trips, top pairs, mid pairs, do they chase...etc...

watching how they play different type of hands in certain situations should help. and many players play the same hands the same way.

start with the basic draws if you have to. watch how they play them. what hands do they bet with? what do they coldcall with? what are their raise or 3 bet standards on the flop?

once you get in the groove of watching this stuff, it will become easier. then after awhile, you wont even notice that youre doing it.

it sounds like youre not paying enough attention to the other players, but only playing youre hand against the pot.

another exercise...if you can, play live. this will help you get more in tune with other players rythyms and patterns. otherwise it's justa 2-dimensional video game. so your subconcious may be thinking that the other players are just computer generated. notice i said subconciously.

i found playing live and online had pros and cons that helped each other. one way helps the numbers, the other helps the feel. as an example.

have a good one...

b

[John Feeney]

Very good advice from Bernie. Also, work on your hand reading in hands you're not in. Watch and try to put the players on hands as the hand progresses, then try to predict what you're going to see at the showdown. The only bad part is the frustration of often not getting to *see* a showdown. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

That said, your idea of first getting in the habit of noting all preflop action is a good one.

[Net Warrior]

You didn't mention what limit you play.

At lower limits many opponents do not play logically due to ignorance, etc, and are therefore mostly unreadable. They'll usually be in too many hands, go too far, and showdown garbage as often as not. They usually don't extract enough money from you when they win.

Other, more dangerous, opponents will play too loose preflop then play very well post flop. They may appear to showdown garbage but do not underestimate them or you will lose a lot of money, especially since they are also difficult to read.

As for the others, who show down logical hands for their position etc, pretend you are playing against yourself. These are the ones who you should put on a range of hands etc and narrow it down based on their action.

These are just very general ideas. Also, read The Psychology of Poker to get a handle on the different player types.

[RockLobster]

You didn't mention what limit you play.

Does that matter? Just kidding. I play up to 2-4 online (Paradise & Party), and 4-8 b&m when I can make it to Foxwoods.

Also, read The Psychology of Poker to get a handle on the different player types.

Cool. I bought this a bit ago, but haven't taken the time to read it yet. Will do.

[RockLobster]

Hi b--

Thanks for the reply. Forgive my frustration and stupidity...

watch how opponents play 'types' of hands.

Can't do it. Oh I've tried, but I can't seem to follow and categorize what's happened for each person. This is too big of a bite for me to start with.

watching how they play different type of hands in certain situations should help. and many players play the same hands the same way.

True.

start with the basic draws if you have to. watch how they play them. what hands do they bet with? what do they coldcall with? what are their raise or 3 bet standards on the flop?

I got lost here... what do you mean by basic draws?

once you get in the groove of watching this stuff, it will become easier. then after awhile, you wont even notice that youre doing it.

Ah, the light at the end of the tunnel. But right now it's the oncoming train.

it sounds like youre not paying enough attention to the other players, but only playing youre hand against the pot.

Correct.

another exercise...if you can, play live. this will help you get more in tune with other players rythyms and patterns. otherwise it's justa 2-dimensional video game. so your subconcious may be thinking that the other players are just computer generated. notice i said subconciously.

Understood. I don't get to play live very often, but I think this is good advice.

i found playing live and online had pros and cons that helped each other. one way helps the numbers, the other helps the feel. as an example.

Yes. And since I play a fair amount of online hands, I really want to use this time to my benefit. Somehow.

have a good one...

I'm trying.


There seems to be so much that has to be tracked in order to read hands effectively. Here's some of what I'm thinking of:
- What type of player is this? This isn't always obvious... some mix up their play nicely, and others play loose preflop, but then tighten up as they go. Others are just wacky.
- What position are they in? They may have played certain hands one way, but now they're in an totally different position, meaning they could be playing something totally different.
- What action has occurred this hand? Track each person's betting actions for each street. What do they mean?
- What action has occurred in recent hands? Are they winning, and loosening up a bit? Are they steaming over a bad stretch?

Did I mention that there are 9 other players at the table?

I need bite-sized help. Baby-step preflop. Baby-step watching the player in seat 1 only. Baby-step out of the cardroom up 2 racks /forums/images/icons/grin.gif.

I have trouble following multi-way action (more than 2 people). I have trouble back-peddling through each street once I see the showdown to see what it could mean. I have trouble remembering the information that I might have learned several hands back for 1 certain player.

On the flipside, I've managed to become good at things that take a lot of hard work and dedication, mentally and physically. I've done this by laying out a strict, piece-by-piece game plan. This is my method of learning. Take one piece, study it, drill it until it becomes second-nature, then move on to the next. I know I can do this, but I need a certain kind of help.

Assuming the above, has anyone else learned to read hands with such a method? Everyone learns differently... does anyone else learn this way? Is there a checklist that I can follow to help me improve? Drill, drill, drill.

I know it's my responsibility to improve my skills. I'm trying. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[AceHigh]

You are in luck, skp wrote an excellent essay on just this topic!

Go to the Essay section of this website, it's called "Basic Hand Reading" or something like that. It covers more than I could in just one post.

[wdbaker]

RockLobster,
This could have been me writing this thread, I am so lost when it comes to this, can't we just get a real time database to pull the hand histories and let us know when they are playing crap hands 80% of the time etc....

One street at a time
wdbaker

[SoBeDude]

One thing I find useful in categorizing my players is using the hand history online.

If they showed down, you can see their cards in the history. If you watch their play then look at their cards, you can start to see a pattern in their play. I review MANY hands this way and it really helps me get a handle on my opponents. you will find you start to put them on a hand, then check the history to see if you're right. Its a great excersise.

Give it a try!

Also, don't expect quick results. There is no shortcut for experience, and experience is measured in the tens of thousands of hands. As you spend time (years?) playing you will pick up more and more of this.

Keep focused, pay attention when you're playing (close the porn), and it will come.

-Scott

[Argyll]

Hi Rock,

On the flipside, I've managed to become good at things that take a lot of hard work and dedication, mentally and physically. I've done this by laying out a strict, piece-by-piece game plan. This is my method of learning. Take one piece, study it, drill it until it becomes second-nature, then move on to the next. I know I can do this, but I need a certain kind of help

This is good to know. It sounds like you may be trying to read the whole table on every play. Start by picking one or two players and watch how they play every hand. Once you get that down add more players as you feel comfortable

Live long and prosper /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[RockLobster]

Oh man, I read this a year or 2 ago, and forgot all about it (I wasn't ready to take on hand-reading yet, I wasn't even aware of the importance of position at that time). Thanks, I'll give this a re-read or 2!

[RockLobster]

Poker Tracker helps me to categorize people to a point, but I still have a lot of trouble figuring out what they're doing post-flop. I've read a ton of excellent posts where people work backward through a hand, and put people on hands that are really close to what they have. I can follow what they're doing, but I can't reproduce what they're doing.

Either way, it looks like we're getting some good replies here, hopefully this will be helpful to other 2+2'ers as well.

[RockLobster]

Scottman--

Thanks for the reply.

One thing I find useful in categorizing my players is using the hand history online.

Homer and I have discussed this... he pointed out to me that you can learn a ton by reading 1 hand history beginning to end, rather than just watching the stats. In other words, a complete hand history tells a bigger story than a bunch of numbers.

Let me ask you this... you're playing against 9 people. Do you go back through hand histories for 1 or 2 of these people? I'd get confused trying to follow too many people's actions. Then once you're comfortable and able to read 1 or 2 ok, expand to another person at the table? This sounds like it could work.

Give it a try!

I will!

Also, don't expect quick results. There is no shortcut for experience, and experience is measured in the tens of thousands of hands. As you spend time (years?) playing you will pick up more and more of this.

This is important. I have 12,000+ online hands since I started keeping track. I've spent the majority of my time on these hands concentrating on making the right play, based on my cards (and my opponents' obvious tendencies). I want to use the next 12,000 hands to concentrate and improve on hand-reading.

Keep focused, pay attention when you're playing (close the porn), and it will come.

I'm insulted. OK, not really /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif, but I never mix porn & poker. I even try to keep Internet Explorer closed while I'm playing (no news, which can be tough).

I hope things are going well for you Scott. I'm up to playing 2-4 fairly regularly, and doing OK. I'll keep you posted /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

Take care--

[RockLobster]

It sounds like you may be trying to read the whole table on every play. Start by picking one or two players and watch how they play every hand. Once you get that down add more players as you feel comfortable

You nailed a weakness here. I absolutely have been trying to follow the whole table. But here's why...

I'm trying to play disciplined. I only see about 20% of the flops, and get to showdown much less (naturally). So the rest of the hands I watch. You have different players seeing the flop, dropping out at the turn, and making it to show down. So I'm seeing different players cards and trying to take this in.

If I only watch 1 or 2 players, I'll go several hands without paying much attention to the showdown, because they won't be in it.

BUT... I agree with you... this is the right move for me. It's not doing me any good to try to follow everyone's action, I am going to start with 1 or 2 people at each session and work from there.

Thanks, I really appreciate your advice, I think this will help a lot.

[bernie]

in reading some of the responses, it makes me wonder about the downside of software like pokerstat or whatever youre using. it seems it can become a crutch to be relied on, hence, not developing a handreading skill as well as if you didnt have it. one may become reliant on it. which is death if you get into a live game, since that skill wcould be stunted in development. even if you have played 'x' thousand hands, id be worried that i was relying on it too much if youre still having trouble with even basic reads.

personally, id put it on the shelf for now and relearn how to read through a hand. then maybe use it later to accentuate your game instead of becoming a major part of your game.

just a thought...

but in thinking more about it, id welcome some online players to the live game if theyve become reliant on this. i'll have to watch for that...if players waiting in line bring this up at all. hmmm..

b

[bernie]

"Thanks for the reply. Forgive my frustration and stupidity..."

it's only stupid if you dont ask and ignore the problem. we've all been frustrated.

"Can't do it. Oh I've tried, but I can't seem to follow and categorize what's happened for each person. This is too big of a bite for me to start with"

as others have stated, dont try to read the whole table at once. take it player by player. start with basic free card plays. categorize hands into 3 things. draws, made hands, nuts. how do they play these 3 on each street?

btw...basic draws are openended str8 and a 4 to a flush. add in a nut flush draw since some play that different than just a 4 to a flush. some play the same.

"What type of player is this? This isn't always obvious... some mix up their play nicely, and others play loose preflop, but then tighten up as they go. Others are just wacky."

many players tend to play the same. when you notice someone sticking out of the crowd, concentrate on them first.

"What position are they in? They may have played certain hands one way, but now they're in an totally different position, meaning they could be playing something totally different."

you know the basic position hands dont you? understand, even the fish can play tighter in earlier positions. especially when they raise. watch how they play hands in regard to position. say they play J2s in an EP. this is an indication that, along with normal position hands, theyll be likely to play any 2 suited. so add that to their range.

read all the sections in books about handreading. (i did this when i had trouble) many will have examples and walk you through it.

as i posted below, youve become too dependent on your software. you may not even be maximizing it's use if you dont recognize the basic patterns...

play without it. relearn it without the crutch.

just some ideas

b

[RockLobster]

Wow, you may be right. It doesn't have to be this way, the software can easily complement hand-reading, but it shouldn't replace it. I know I've become quite dependant upon it.

I'm going to continue to use the software to track my hands and store histories, but I'll work to develop my hand-reading without it.

Thanks b.

[RockLobster]

Thanks for the reply, there's some good info here.

btw...basic draws are openended str8 and a 4 to a flush. add in a nut flush draw since some play that different than just a 4 to a flush. some play the same.

Excellent, thanks.

you know the basic position hands dont you?

Not by that name, sorry /forums/images/icons/confused.gif. I mean, I know which hands play well based on position, prior betting, etc. Are you referring to an actual list?

read all the sections in books about handreading. (i did this when i had trouble) many will have examples and walk you through it.

I have been rereading these sections and looking for gems... also internet articles.

Thanks again for the help!

[SoBeDude]

If I can't understand why a player just played the way he/she did, I'll grab the hand-history and see what they held.

Usually I instantly scroll down to the bottom and just look at their holdings. That's usually enough. (What the heck was he raising me with!??)

One good example is when you see a player call two or three bets cold, then check-calls to the river. That one always interests me.

When I see play that I feel played sub-optimally, I write notes on the player. After a while, I find I have several notes about the same person. At this point I have a decent feel for how he/she plays. Are they straightforward? are they a maniac? do they play a naked ace? any two suited? Does a turn raise mean at least 2 pair or a set, or a possible bluff?

Once you have a feel for the style of the player, its much easier to put them on a hand when the chips are flying.

Some situations are very easy to read once you learn to spot them. For example, the guy who raises from LP with a two-tone board, and then takes the free card on the turn when everyone checks to him and a blank hits. Odds are he's on a flush draw.

I usually try to focus on only one or two players during a hand. The calling-station is unreadable anyway so don't waste your time. Just focus on the one(s) doing something besides just hitting the "call" button.

One thing. I use the hand history right away. I request it as soon as the hand is over. This way the hand is still very fresh in my mind. I never go back through a bunch of them to try to see how a player plays. thats too tough. Just watch while you play, then combine it with grabbing a few histories and develop your 'read' on them.

Good luck!

-Scott

(I think this is my longest-ever post!)

[SoBeDude]

in reading some of the responses, it makes me wonder about the downside of software like pokerstat or whatever youre using. it seems it can become a crutch to be relied on, hence, not developing a handreading skill as well as if you didnt have it.

Not really Bernie. The software really can't easily act as a crutch in this way. It is really only useful "away" from the table. It allows you to analyze your play in ways not easily done without computers.

Hand reading skills is entirely separate from evaluating if you have been playing A2s from MP profitably, or losing money with it.

-Scott

[bernie]

i was under the impression that this program, or a program like it, tracks the hands that your opponents play, that are shown down, and tells you how they played them street by street. that way giving you their 'tendency' of what they may have.

i know there is something where it keeps track of opponents hands...

input welcome...

b

[RockLobster]

The software really can't easily act as a crutch in this way. It is really only useful "away" from the table. It allows you to analyze your play in ways not easily done without computers.

Unfortunately I use the software a lot while playing, mainly to help categorize people. I agree that it doesn't assist with hand-reading, but I think I've used the numbers INSTEAD of developing hand-reading.

Make sense?

[RockLobster]

One good example is when you see a player call two or three bets cold, then check-calls to the river. That one always interests me.

Yes, this has caught my attention a few times as well.

I usually try to focus on only one or two players during a hand. The calling-station is unreadable anyway so don't waste your time. Just focus on the one(s) doing something besides just hitting the "call" button.

Good advice, thanks.

One thing. I use the hand history right away.

This is something I have not been doing (I usually wait and request 50+ at a time... not good). Thanks again...

[RockLobster]

Hi b--

I use Poker Tracker to help me keep track of my own play, and keep stats on my opponents as well. It tells me how often they:

- % they see the flop (from a blind or not)
- same as above, based on their position
- % they see the showdown when seeing the flop
- % they win $ when seeing the showdown
- % they raise pre-flop (and from where, and with what, if shown down)

You can look at their stats based on a hand (say, AKo) and then pull up any specific histories that show how they played that hand.

...and more.

So yes, it does quite a bit. In fact, the next release will show you what action they have historically taken on each street (so you can see who's likely to see the turn, but fold on the river to pressure, etc.).

It does quite a bit.

[EDIT:] ...and I agree that over-relying on this can stump one's hand-reading development. I'm going to take your advice and back off of using this while I'm playing.

[SoBeDude]

huh.

I honestly never thought of using it that way. But I can see how you could.

To me, its just a tool to use away from the table. But I DO see how if you used it at the table how it could interfere with developing hand-reading skills.

-Scott

[RockLobster]

Yep.

I think you use Poker Tracker, right? The "Game Time" tab is great for this purpose. (For those not familiar...) It displays a virtual table, with the players currently playing, and some basic info for each (flops seen %, pfr %, c/r %, etc). I use this while playing to quickly get a feel for each person and the overall table.

Anyway, per bernie's suggestion, I'm going to back off of my game-time usage of the software and work on basic hand-reading.

[bernie]

i also read that essay someone mentioned. you may have already read it. i found it fantastic. especially in regards to how he uses his analysis to come up with his read. granted, it can be a generalization, but its got some great examples. if youve read it, read it again. and really study the analysis and how he came up with the read.

some other examples like this are found in feeneys book and in HPFAP. other books also have sections like this. but the thought/read process may not be as laid out. but any bit helps get in the hand reading mode.

b

[RockLobster]

In case anyone is having a hard time finding it. I just reread it, and it's really good...

Hand-reading primer essay (http://www.twoplustwo.com/skp1.html)

[DocJude]

Hi,
I,m pretty new to all of this. What I like to do is spend a half hour or so looking in on the table before I sit in. It gives me a chance to watch the hands being played without having to concentrate on playing myself. It also helps me to hit the ground running.
That said, I've not done too well yet. Still I'm having fun.

Jude

[Mikey]

I wish I could tell you what people have in their hands all the time, but I'll be honest with you sometimes I don't even know how I know. I can't tell you how I know, I JUST KNOW!!!

I began reading hands instinctively long before I picked up any Poker book. Now don't get reading hands and figuring out betting patterns confused, because the two work hand in hand sometimes. Reading hands the way I see it, is guess what his two hole cards are, or guess what his hand is.

I think that when I began playing online the art of reading hands was completely diluted, but I began learning betting patterns, betting patterns are more valuable than reading hands.

Reading hands is intinctive.
Betting patterns is logic.

You won't hone your skill of instincts online.