7 hi/lo @Foxwoods...did i misplay this?

[edfreeze]

Playing $2-10 7 hi-lo with a half kill @ Foxwoods on Thurs. I'm dealt 3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Brought in for $2, I raise $2, five callers. The 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif is dead. Fourth street brings me 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif I bet $5 since the other players looking low have caught bad or worse than me, and I figure I'll be put on a low and called by high hands that I can sweep when I make my flush. Called by three other players. Now I catch bad. I bet $10, wanting to push all other low draws out of the pot and hell maybe take it right there, I had been called all along and no one was showing much enthusiasm for their hands. BUT the guy across the table from me just caught a K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif for his third up spade, two of 'em above 8. He raises me $15. I'm the only caller. Long story short, I call him down to the river, don't make my low or flush, he's got his flush.
Now I don't know he's got a flush of course, he could have made kings up or even a pair of Ks and put me on a busted low (partially right) With a lot of dead money in the pot, was I right to invest another $30 in the pot on a low draw (2 cards to come for a low card for 1/2 the pot - my cards were pretty live) or a sweep (which of course would have required me pulling the A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif as he already had his king-high)?
Would like some input as I brooded about this hand for a little while...

ALSO: I also don't seem to get away from big pairs quickly enough in 7 hi/lo. I'll start with As or Ks of Qs and bet strong, get called by people I put on a low, and push and push til the river, waiting to pair up or thinking, "I know I'm leading at this point, even if I don't hit my second pair. These guys must be looking low" Too often of course I don't hit it and lose to low straights or a guy going low who made 5s up. Obviously if my cards are real dead or someone elses hand threatens or someone bets hard with an overcard, I get out. Any tips on this?

Thanks in advance to any responders. Love the forums.

edfreeze

[Rockfish]

I might not bet the $10 because with high spades already on board, what else might he be reasonably (huge qualifier depending on how loose he might be) drawing to? The bet is not the worst thing in the world either because you've got mad outs going both ways (three 5s plus the A, 2, 8 of diamonds, all the aces twos and eights for just low and the high diamonds for just high).

Of course you go to the river. You don't call the river unless you hit so it's only $10.

As far as big pairs, if it's a no ante game, forget it. I wouldn't even play kings. The whole table will be playing aces and any ace that falls beats you. Stick to your strong two way hands.

Rockfish

[Walter]

"Playing $2-10 7 hi-lo with a half kill @ Foxwoods on Thurs. I'm dealt 3 4 6 Brought in for $2, I raise $2, five callers. The 5 is dead."

why not raise more? you don't necessarily mind if you lose players, and if people call a maximum raise, you don't mind that either.

"Fourth street brings me 7 I bet $5 since the other players looking low have caught bad or worse than me, and I figure I'll be put on a low and called by high hands that I can sweep when I make my flush."

Again, why not make the maximum bet? If people fold, great, if they call, that is fine, b/c you have the best draw.

"Now I catch bad. I bet $10, wanting to push all other low draws out of the pot and hell maybe take it right there, I had been called all along and no one was showing much enthusiasm for their hands. BUT the guy across the table from me just caught a K for his third up spade, two of 'em above 8. He raises me $15. I'm the only caller."

It is unclear from your post what your position is against the King, but if you think he will bet, and you want to drive out other lows, then you should consider a check-raise if the lows are between you and the high.

"Now I don't know he's got a flush of course, he could have made kings up or even a pair of Ks and put me on a busted low (partially right) With a lot of dead money in the pot, was I right to invest another $30 in the pot on a low draw (2 cards to come for a low card for 1/2 the pot - my cards were pretty live) or a sweep (which of course would have required me pulling the A as he already had his king-high)?"

You have to call until the river. He may be making a move with kings up (with a couple of your suit or a five in the hole) thinking you have little chance of scooping.

If you have not made two pair by the river, you have a tough time calling. It doesn't even sound like you can beat a bluff at this point.

"ALSO: I also don't seem to get away from big pairs quickly enough in 7 hi/lo. I'll start with As or Ks of Qs and bet strong, get called by people I put on a low, and push and push til the river, waiting to pair up or thinking, "I know I'm leading at this point, even if I don't hit my second pair."

I'd say the following:
1. Raise the maximum on 3rd street so people cannot draw for cheap. Why are you letting people in? A lot of hands bust out in 8-or-better. You don't have such a great edge that you can slowplay.
2. Keep track of dead cards so you know the chances of your opponents pairing up or hitting straights.
3. Stop leading on 6th street if they have 3 low cards that are also straight/flush cards.
4. Be aware of the texture of their board and their likely hole cards based on their 3rd street call. If you jack it $10 on 3rd street and they have a four up, they probably have a big pair in the hole or they have three wheel cards or three low straight or low flush cards. Two more small low cards up will usually mean a made low, two pair, or a pair with a four low. If they have a 4-5-8 up, then you most likely only have to worry about the straight, not two pair.
5. Check and call if heads up on the river if you only have a high pair. If you make two big pair, you can lead and call a raise unless their board is very well coordinated.

[edfreeze]

thanks Rock and Walter for your input:

"Playing $2-10 7 hi-lo with a half kill @ Foxwoods on Thurs. I'm dealt 3 4 6 Brought in for $2, I raise $2, five callers. The 5 is dead."
"why not raise more? you don't necessarily mind if you lose players, and if people call a maximum raise, you don't mind that either."

Max raise with a low three flush? This seems very risky to me...i could
bust out either way, as I did in this case...too risky or a good idea?

"Fourth street brings me 7 I bet $5 since the other players looking low have caught bad or worse than me, and I figure I'll be put on a low and called by high hands that I can sweep when I make my flush."
"Again, why not make the maximum bet? If people fold, great, if they call, that is fine, b/c you have the best draw."

Now i could see a bigger raise, yes, my odds just went way up, with a four flush/four low/inside straight draw.


"I'd say the following:
1. Raise the maximum on 3rd street so people cannot draw for cheap. Why are you letting people in? A lot of hands bust out in 8-or-better. You don't have such a great edge that you can slowplay."
With a big pair (As or Ks if I don't see an A on board) i would raise the max, good advice.

Very sound advice from both, thanks. Rockfish, you'd never play any big pair but As, huh? I think if I bet Ks in late position (no As up) against three limpers with low cards, and they called and all caught bad on 4th street, a big bet may win it right there. Not smart?

thanks again

edfreeze

[Walter]

"Max raise with a low three flush? This seems very risky to me...i could bust out either way, as I did in this case...too risky or a good idea?"

true, you could bust out, but you need to consider possibilities where there is no showdown:
1. you may win the bring in and the antes.
2. other players may assume you have a big pair in the hole. if your board pairs, then they fear two pair and may muck.
3. you could bet through the river, and if the player going low busts out, they won't call you at the end.

add these possibilities to your chances of making a very good hand, and you should be pushing your hand early. you have the best chance of making a good hand, so you should want more money in the pot.

[Rockfish]

OK I may be a little off base here. This is 2-10 spread so I presume there is no ante. If there is an ante my analysis would change.

Rockfish

[Andy B]

Fold on third street. Your hand is dead.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Is there an ante in this game? This information should be included in the oiginal post.

Roughly speaking, you should get as much money in on third street as you can. If people will call a larger raise, raise more. My preferred approach is to limp in early and hope to get a raise in. You have an excellent two-way hand, and even if you blank off on fourth street, you have good prospects in both directions. You seem to be afraid of raising because you might bust out. If you play hold'em, you should usually raise with AK. Frequently, you'll have to check and fold on the flop, but that doesn't make the pre-flop raise any less correct. In both cases, you're getting your money in with an edge. If losing more than the minimum bothers you, don't play.

On fourth street, you have a powerful hand. Even if the low hands had caught good, you'd still want to get your money in there. If people will call a larger bet, make it. If raised, re-raise.

On fifth, you've still got a good hand. I think betting out is fine. The guy with the spades will probably bet for you, whether he has the flush or not, so I think checking and calling is reasonable. I'm not so sure of the value of knocking anyone out. That's only a good thing if you hit and they would have drawn out on you. I don't think that a raise is going to knock out anyone with a better low draw.

How likely is it that the spades guy already has his flush? You said he had two spades higher than an 8. Was one his door card? That does make the flush more likely. If you had made him call a larger bet on fourth street, that would also make the flush more likely.

Of course you stay until the end. He doesn't have to have a flush. The looser he is, the more likely he is not to have it, but your low should be good if it gets there. Sometimes they don't. C'est la vie.

As for the play of high pairs, if you figure it out, let me know. Long ago, high-low split was played without a qualifier for low. This made high pairs absolutely unplayable--the low hands were totally free-rolling on them. With the qualifier, high pairs have value because they have some scoop potential when the lows bust out. Once a low is completed, the high hand loses a lot of its value. A couple of things from Ray's book:

Say it's a heads-up pot on fifth street with two bets in the pot, and you have a one-way hand. You should be 75% sure of winning your end to continue, since you'll have to pay three bets to win one. If you have Kings and are looking at 543, forget about it. If you're looking at 862, keep playing. Maybe he's paired and you can still scoop.

The other thing that I picked up on my 25th or so reading of Ray's book is that if you have a high hand on fourth street, and you're up against two low hands that have caught small cards close in rank to their door cards, that is the time to get out. Your scoop chances are greatly diminished. You'll usually be playing for only half the pot, and one pair is pretty easy to draw out on.

I would still play high pairs even with no ante, but I'd be a little quicker to get away from them, I think.

[edfreeze]

Thanks Andy for chiming in...

"Is there an ante in this game? This information should be included in the oiginal post."
Point taken. There's no ante, lo card bring in for $2.

"How likely is it that the spades guy already has his flush? You said he had two spades higher than an 8. Was one his door card?"
I did say that on fifth st he had three up spades.

"The other thing that I picked up on my 25th or so reading of Ray's book is that if you have a high hand on fourth street, and you're up against two low hands that have caught small cards close in rank to their door cards, that is the time to get out. Your scoop chances are greatly diminished. You'll usually be playing for only half the pot, and one pair is pretty easy to draw out on. "
This is good advice. I guess I'm still 20 or so readings behind you on Rays book. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

edfreeze

[Andy B]

Sorry I wasn't absolutely clear. We'll try this again. You said that on fifth street, the other guy had three spades showing, two of them higher than Eight. I was asking if one of the high cards was his door card. If he had started with a small spade in the door, he might have started with a three-card low and just peeled when he blanked off on fourth. If he had a banana in the door, it is more likely that he has a made flush on fifth street.

[ACPlayer]

This particular game has no ante so I would not play any hands that dont have 2 way potential. KK, QQ are, IMO, not playable and even AA I would like to have a baby.