3-5 NL Live Hand

[boondockst]

MP2 is a thinking player from my observation (laid down kings to too much action postflop but not rock-solid as he "slowplayed" the kings)

Button is an idiot kid who has bragged about playing in the WSOP so far yet keeps rebuying the minimum and pushing in with KTo, etc.

I probably should have bet the flop but I think i was considering check-raising it. I know that open-limping with 34s is suspect as well in MP but that's irrelevant now. Easy call or easy fold?

Live 3-5 (100-200), (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Button ($100)</font>
SB ($xxxxx)
BB ($xxxxx)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($383)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($654)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $5, MP2 calls $5, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $5, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($25) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($25) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $5</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $55</font>, MP2 calls $55, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $95 (All-In)</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $40, MP2 calls $40.

River: ($315) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $283 (All-In)</font>, Hero?

[wdeadwyler]

I dont understand why you bet the river... What are you hoping will call here, two pair?? This is WAY above my stakes though so feel free to defend the bet.

[boondockst]

You don't believe in a blocking bet here? I have to bet SOMETHING don't I?

[wdeadwyler]

Pot is protected by the all in right? DO you think villain would try to steal against the protection?

[boondockst]

If I check and he makes a huge bet with just a 3, can I call? He could make a large bet with just a 3 honestly thinkking he must have the best hand. Also, in case he has a set of 5s or something (he did just flat-call the turn) don't I need to squeeze in a value-bet?

[deadmoney98]

getting almost 4:1, i cannot see a good reason to fold here.

yeah, he will have the nuts sometimes, but he will have a set or worse often enough.

easy call, IMO.

[boondockst]

He'd raise with WORSE than a set? Why wouldn't he raise on the turn then? I don't see the reasoning behind that statement.

[NYCNative]

What are you afraid of here, having to show the table you open-limped with a four high? You have third nuts unless I am misreading something here... You really put someone on 87?

[boondockst]

I wasn't afraid of tabling 34s whatsoever....What range can I put the villain on after he flat-calls the turn and raises the river?

[PokerFink]

Yikes. Tough spot. Two things come to mind.

1) Bet less on the river. It's a dry side pot, so a really small bet (say 50) doesn't look nearly as weak as it normally would with that size pot.

2) Push the turn. Worst case scenario is that you have outs with the flush, and you might even fold a three.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
What range can I put the villain on after he flat-calls the turn and raises the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

78 or a very complex bluff against your blocking bet. I doubt he's limping 37.

The more I think about this, since villian is a "thinking" player you have to fold. The way you played it screams that you have a three, villian can't possibly put you on spades with a three so there is no reason for him to raise on the turn with 78.

If villian is good enough to know that you have exactly a three and he has just a three as well, so he raises knowing he is freerolling, then he's just a better player than both of us and you should stay away from him.

I just can't call this. Sucks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What are you thinking when you raise the turn? Whatever it was, I don't like it. You have a small pot hand and a draw to a big pot hand that you are getting for cheap. Take the draw, manage the pot. I absolutely hate that raise.

[boondockst]

Just call the $5 on the turn with a straight and OESFD? What's wrong with taking down $30 right there and defining my hand? If a spade hits on the river and THEN i wake up, my action will be dead and especially if i hit the 2 of spades for the straight flush, as it would pair the board.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with taking down $30 right there

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing. So glad that worked out for you.
[ QUOTE ]
and defining my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to do that? If you don't raise, maybe you can get a 'value bet' off a worse hand. Once you raise, no way anyone is putting in more money without a better hand or better draw.
[ QUOTE ]
If a spade hits on the river and THEN i wake up, my action will be dead and especially if i hit the 2 of spades for the straight flush, as it would pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why cares? You should worry more about getting blown off your draw now by the nuts and controlling the pot. You will also benefit from not knocking people out who are drawing very slim like 2 pair.

[boondockst]

So what do you say I should do on the turn? Smoothcall the $5??? This was one of like 2 hands I can remember in hours where someone bet the minimum on the turn....How do I play if someone else raises? Smooth-call that? Fold my OESFD? If I smooth-call a raise, check/call the river to let two pair bluff? Please state your line, I am very curious.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes, I'm just calling all bets on the turn. I do NOT want to build a big pot in this spot. And I'm probably calling all bets on the river, too, no matter what falls. If a spade falls, I may raise, depending on the action.

[boondockst]

Interesting, TWP, I respect you and know you post here and MHNL yet i crossposted there to contrast the replies and the consensus there was to play postflop as I did and easily call the river....Does the SSNL online mentality inspire you to so viciously bash my line? (No offense taken)

[TheWorstPlayer]

Perhaps partially. I haven't played in the game you describe, and I don't know how your opponents will play. But I'm guessing that the Mid/High guys are used to playing with people who are more aggressive than the opponents in this hand and will have wider hand ranges. I still don't see what they would hope to accomplish really by raising the turn, though.

i like those kind of hands also but i dont usually commit myself in multiway pots like that with no bets on the flop, which was your first dramatic mistake. your turn bet was almost as bad, i guess i am wondering why you over bet the pot by so much?? was the table really poor and everyone was a bunch of calling stations, becuase with that many callers it seems kinda out of control, and if that is how the table was playing i have noclue what you are doing in the hand with a 34, thats just not a winning strategy at a loose table. if your check on the flop was bad your turn bet was even worst then that, but where i almost fell out of my chair was on the river when you bet. im not sure what you were thinking, im not sure if you were. there is no reason for you to bet in that situation, i can see a check call to a reasonable bet, but i cant see check calling a big bet in this situation on the river. most of the money is in the hands of the all in on the SB who could have very well be pushing two pair or a flush draw, but its not that unlikely he has a 89 considering he had seen the hand for free up to that point. i guess i think that you had pot stuck yourself by now on the river, at best i think your looking at a chop pot. havent read any of the posts, like to see how it turned out for you, hope you won.

[boondockst]

to noclue2, not trying to be a jerk, but have you played live?

It's quite different from PPNL25 in ways I can't quite explain to you. There's a lot of check-raising and min-raising. Example


I have Q9s on the Button (or relative) and limp with BB and a MP also in.

Flop is 10 8 x rainbow. BB checks, MP who frequently stabs bets out $10, I call the $10 and so does the BB.

River is a beautiful Jack. BB checks, MP checks, I bet $25, BB check-min-raises to $50, I reraise to $150, and he pushes for a total of $235. He has JTo for two pair and the river is a brick for him. Horrid play in my opinion, worse than some that I see on party at times. when your check-raise gets 3-bet you still push with two pair?

Given the quality of players (not denying odds to drawing hands, position considerations, etc.) I had no problem limping with 34s in this situation as most players were very predictable postflop.

I don't see how you wouldn't bet SOMETHING on this river. You're begging for another player to move in with a 3 or even less.

[boondockst]

Another horrid example (I misplayed this BADLY, but not nearly as badly as the others)


I open-raise to $20 in the CO with KQs. Button flat calls with pocket kings! Small blind flat calls with pocket aces! Big blind feels priced in with J9o and calls.

Flop is J 9 4 and I'm thinking I have two overcard outs (partial) and the gutshot. I haven't seen any strength and have no reason to suspect such strong hands.

Small blind (AA) checks, Big blind checks (two pair), I check, Pocket Kings leads out for $25, Small blind FLAT CALLS!, Big blind check-min-raises to $50, I *EDIT*, Button FLATCALLS the min-raise, Small blind THEN moves all in for $100 more, Big blind moves in on top of that for $200 more, and Button finally folds.....


In summary, I trusted I could play decent enough postflop (even OOP) with 34s and one of the deepest stacks at the table to warrant a limp. Yes I could have bet the flop but I received the best possible turn card and it wasn't the type of table to wait for the nuts and bet as a lot of money was made without showdowns.

[boondockst]

[ QUOTE ]
but i dont usually commit myself in multiway pots like that with no bets on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement does NOT speak for itself. I assume you're trying to abuse the cliche "Dont go broke in an unraised pot" and it's simply ridiculous.

Try saying out loud, "I'd play a straight + open-ended straight flush draw very weakly in a pot where no one has shown an interest and I'm one of the bigger stacks at the table."

Good god, what hand do you want to play if not a straight + OESFD?

[jt1]

At the risk of revealing how bad of a player I am, I'll disagree with everyone.

I bet $20-25 on the flop, because I think you'll have the best hand at least 40% of the time. Having not bet the flop, I raise the turn to $30, because you are only worried about 78. I like the river bet: It's not too high so middle 2 pair should call. I'm clueless after he raises. I think he'd only do this with the nuts but the pots giving you about 4-1. Stilll, I might actually fold this.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he'd only do this with the nuts but the pots giving you about 4-1. Stilll, I might actually fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't you think Villian might assume that Hero doesn't have a straight, because, he didn't re-raise on the turn or possibly Villain also has a 3? Mandatory call here.

[boondockst]

Me (Hero) can't reraise on the turn because the Button didn't raise the minimum with his push. How can the Villain (who i speak of as a thinking player who has folded KK on an undercard flop) raise and not fear I have 73 or 78?

[PokerFink]

There are really only two possibilities that I see.

1) Villian is a thinking player. He has 78.

2) Villian is a much better player than both of us. He has just a three but knows you have just a three as well.

Option 1 is far more likely.