$109s - AQ Hand

[Unarmed]

Villain raised T9o first hand and hit mid pair, then check/called the hand down and took a t200 pot.
No reads otherwise.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1075)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t845)
MP1 (t960)
MP2 (t982)
MP3 (t1000)
Hero (t925)
Button (t1205)
SB (t1008)
BB (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t45</font>, Button calls t45, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t115) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t70</font>, Button calls t60.

Turn: (t255) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t300</font>, Hero wants to know your line for the rest of the hand.

[ReDeYES88]

either he's testing to see if you really have the A, or he's running with a set (or two pair) right now. ...

.. how often have YOU flat called the flop and reraised the turn? . .and what cards did you have when you did?

your line. ..hmmmm .....call his turn raise and check the river, waiting to see how he bets?. .....ready to call a biggish bet and snap off the bluff?, suspicious of a suck bet? .....

[roma12]

I would dump right away. Hard to imagine he would check min raise something worse on that turn, especially given the previous hand you mentioned. If he is bluffing here, hes probably doing it with the intention of pushing the river, which would be a tough situation as well. Your bets were solid, with the late call PF and the previous hand im sure he hit two pair at the least.

[applejuicekid]

This really smells like a set to me, but I can't see myself folding this. I think he will have a weaker ace here enough to make a push correct.

Actually, now that I think about it some more I really don't know. I'm interested in what others have to say as well.

[The Don]

You are beat on the turn... period. Raise 4x preflop, if you have played any NL ring you will know this is standard with stacks this deep PF.

[durron597]

Calling is not an option here. I wish you had raised more preflop to define his hand a little more... as it stands I would probably fold but this is a yucky spot.

Another option is to c/r the flop, if he continues you can give him a little more credit for a hand and a lot of times if he has nothing you can get more chips in the pot that way.

[Jman28]

I hate these spots. Good hand to post.

What position did he raise T9o from? A player that would raise this in EP would be likely to play Ax the way the villian did.

Usually, I think you are behind too often here and should let it go. I, however, don't have that much discipline.

[illunious]

Easy fold.

It's the turn, if he has you, you pay more on the river. Put yourself in his shoes.. do you play AJ or less like that?

Counterfeit draw is your only hope IMHO.

[Stormwolf]

no real reason to bet the turn, check and call then if he fires a big on the river make a read

[citanul]

there's basically nothing besides the check call minicheckraise line that screams you're beat more than the line villain has taken here. that said, many players have trouble finding a fold here, even against a bad villain. (that's mostly because against a bad villain you should be seeking to get all your chips in against his Ax one pair hand.) i also kinda like overbet leading the flop kinda. finally, you should have complained when he called for only 60 your bet of 70. that's cheating.

citanul

Does anyone actually have a suggestion on the best line here? I think I basically always call here because folding to a miniraise hurts me, but I don't like it. More importantly, I have no idea what to do on the next street. It's really hard to put an obvious donkey on a hand that beats TP2K. For all we know he's got 29--playing the gutshot and caught his 9, which he thought deserved a raise. What line do you guys think is optimal?

[Uppercut]

"Hero bets t70, Button calls t60."

Button shorted the pot! Report him to security.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
Counterfeit draw is your only hope IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL. HURRAY FOR THE COUNTERFEIT DRAW. ROFL.

Unarmed, youre beat. Lay it down.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t115) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t115.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like your bet of t75 on the flop. i like to find out as soon as possible how good my hand is. i'm looking to either win the hand ouright on the flop or if Button calls t115:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t345) 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t759 and is all-in


[/ QUOTE ]

the rest of the hand will be found out on the turn. all-in eliminates an ugly and uncomfortable C/R decision. if you're beaten, you find out now instead of say [folding] and having to wonder if his loose play earlier influenced you into being muscled off the pot.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t115) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t115.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like your bet of t75 on the flop. i like to find out as soon as possible how good my hand is. i'm looking to either win the hand ouright on the flop or if Button calls t115:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t345) 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t759 and is all-in


[/ QUOTE ]

the rest of the hand will be found out on the turn. all-in eliminates an ugly and uncomfortable C/R decision. if you're beaten, you find out now instead of say [folding] and having to wonder if his loose play earlier influenced you into being muscled off the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

so your strategy is to make a bigger bet to see where you are on the flop, then if he calls your bet, showing strength, to just lead out all in so you'll likely fold out worse hands and be called by better ones? nice job!

what kind of uncomfortabel C/R decision can you be faced with when you can't be checkraised? hero acts first.

"if you're beaten you find out now" is not a great line when the way you find out now is because your opponent calls and busts you.

yours is tragically bad reasoning.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of uncomfortabel C/R decision can you be faced with when you can't be checkraised? hero acts first.


[/ QUOTE ]

i apologize. i meant uncomfortable reraise[s] on the turn. explain the problem with my alternative line and it's tragic reasoning.

[citanul]

the problem with your reasoning is that you said you wanted to lead large to find out where you are, and then when called (which shows strength often) you wanted to lead all in on the turn. what circumstance were you going to be able to get away from your hand? i'm not necessarilly saying that you should be able to get away from this hand easily, but if your reasoning was that leading large would allow you to find out where you are, you have to have a route for this.

also, leading all in on the turn yes, gets it so that you don't have any hard decisions from that point forward, but it does so because it just hands your stack to anyone who has you beat. eliminating hard decisions is one thing, doing it in a way that eliminates thought entirely is another.

citanul

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
finally, you should have complained when he called for only 60 your bet of 70. that's cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's awesome.
I bet 60 there and people come over the top quite often with whatever. I didn't want to get into a flop bet argument so I changed it to 70. Apparently, that isn't enough either. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem with your reasoning is that you said you wanted to lead large to find out where you are, and then when called (which shows strength often) you wanted to lead all in on the turn. what circumstance were you going to be able to get away from your hand? i'm not necessarilly saying that you should be able to get away from this hand easily, but if your reasoning was that leading large would allow you to find out where you are, you have to have a route for this.

also, leading all in on the turn yes, gets it so that you don't have any hard decisions from that point forward, but it does so because it just hands your stack to anyone who has you beat. eliminating hard decisions is one thing, doing it in a way that eliminates thought entirely is another.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

and your turn move?

[citanul]

depends on what my flop move was and what happened to it.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
depends on what my flop move was and what happened to it.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop: (t115) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif , A /images/graemlins/spade.gif , 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t115, Button calls t115.

Turn: (t345) 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero?

[citanul]

well, personally on the flop i either lead 70-75 or about 150-175, and very rarely do i lead 115.

if i had taken the action as you described, i'd probably make a choice between leading about 1/2 the pot on the turn, sometimes pushing on the turn, and checking the turn, usually with the intention of calling a push on the turn. (that line gets the bluffs *and* hands yo'ure behind, instead of just getting called by hands that beat you if you push, so you gain a lot of value.) usually you'll have a read. with my line, i'd probably be happy getting it all in on the turn against a known donk who'll pay me off with AJ or somesuch, however, this hand as it was played out seems either like a set, or my favorite, the turned 2 pair. hero i think can get away from this hand as he played it on the flop and turn pretty safely against almost all opponents.

very very very few opponents at almost any stakes sng are going to "muscle" you off this pot on the turn. i'm hoping you don't get "muscled" off such pots in the 5s or 10s.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
well, personally on the flop i either lead 70-75 or about 150-175, and very rarely do i lead 115.

if i had taken the action as you described, i'd probably make a choice between leading about 1/2 the pot on the turn, sometimes pushing on the turn, and checking the turn, usually with the intention of calling a push on the turn. (that line gets the bluffs *and* hands yo'ure behind, instead of just getting called by hands that beat you if you push, so you gain a lot of value.) usually you'll have a read. with my line, i'd probably be happy getting it all in on the turn against a known donk who'll pay me off with AJ or somesuch, however, this hand as it was played out seems either like a set, or my favorite, the turned 2 pair. hero i think can get away from this hand as he played it on the flop and turn pretty safely against almost all opponents.

very very very few opponents at almost any stakes sng are going to "muscle" you off this pot on the turn. i'm hoping you don't get "muscled" off such pots in the 5s or 10s.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

[Gramps]

Keep the pot under control on the Turn - you're way ahead or way behind, but it's going to be hard to stay in if he makes a play at you on the Turn (which sucks, b/c he may do this with a worse Ace and it's hard to give a loose/reckless player credit for a better hand even though they'll have it a fair % of the time). Also if you check the Turn, he may bet a hand he wouldn't have called you with (that has very few outs and that you don't mind seeing one more card). Or, he may check behind but call a River bet/bet the River when checked to with a hand he would have folded to your Turn bet.

If he raised with T9o, in the spot you're in, I'd probably begrudgingly call the raise and call the River bet or come back over the top. I'm not folding to this type of player with the # of chips in the pot at this point - but, I don't like having to go to war here and would prefer playing more protection in Level 1 here.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

and here we have, in a nutshell, the problem when people try to use advice from high stakes games to use in their play at low stakes games. i'm not saying that you shouldn't continue posting in threads like these or anything, as clearly you and others will learn something, but you should be willing to accept and understand, and possibly even take into account when you offer advice and analysis in your original post, that there are differences between play at the different stakes.

in specific, i can assure you that the majority of the time that you put in the bet that gets all in on the turn on this hand, and you are called, you will be behind, significantly.

that is, in bet, raise, 3 bet
in push call
and in check bet raise all in call

lines, you are usually in bad, bad shape here, at the 109s.

at the 5s and 10s and likely the 22s, and maybe the 33s, you are usually ahead on average, and usually ahead in a dominanating fashion.

so yeah, when you make a post to offer a line for a hand like this in the future, do consider the quality of your average opponent for the stakes and hand that you are commenting on. it will help you a lot.

citanul

[Unarmed]

Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

and here we have, in a nutshell, the problem when people try to use advice from high stakes games to use in their play at low stakes games. i'm not saying that you shouldn't continue posting in threads like these or anything, as clearly you and others will learn something, but you should be willing to accept and understand, and possibly even take into account when you offer advice and analysis in your original post, that there are differences between play at the different stakes.

in specific, i can assure you that the majority of the time that you put in the bet that gets all in on the turn on this hand, and you are called, you will be behind, significantly.

that is, in bet, raise, 3 bet
in push call
and in check bet raise all in call

lines, you are usually in bad, bad shape here, at the 109s.

at the 5s and 10s and likely the 22s, and maybe the 33s, you are usually ahead on average, and usually ahead in a dominanating fashion.

so yeah, when you make a post to offer a line for a hand like this in the future, do consider the quality of your average opponent for the stakes and hand that you are commenting on. it will help you a lot.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

there is no problem, as i see it. you are wrong when you implicate that i am using advice from a high stakes game to use in a low stakes one. conversely, i'm actually a low stakes player posting an alternate line of play for a hand in a high stakes game. either you agree with it or you don't and you post the reasons why. it's that simple. the quality of player has been taken in to account on this play by me as well as the differences in play between the levels. my post is simply an alternate line of play, none of which, means it's the end all be all. if you want to point out a different line from mine, cool beans. otherwise, get over yourself.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's how my line went. obviously, i haven't taken the difference and quality of play into account though. wonder how i missed that?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
you are wrong when you implicate that i am using advice from a high stakes game to use in a low stakes one.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did not say that you were. i didn't even "implicate" it. i simply said that your post i was responding to exemplified the problem. i did not mean to say that you were actually DOING it, merely that your post showed WHY IT IS dangerous. my apologies if you were offended by that particular line. many other people DO use "fancy" plays from higher stakes games at their lower stakes games, and it is a problem.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's how my line went. obviously, i haven't taken the difference and quality of play into account though. wonder how i missed that?

[/ QUOTE ]

pounding away is all well and good until someone flashes a big red sign in front of your face that says "HEY YOU ARE BEAT ON THIS HAND." the lack of the ability to allow your opponent to flash such a sign in front of your face at a level where they will very, very rarely do it as a bluff, is what is missing from the line which just pushes on the turn. Additionally, at the 109s, even most of the fairly bad players who would call down value bets will not call on the turn if you push when they are beaten. That's what's missing from your line.

citanul

basically, pounding away shouldn't include "let them off cheap when they're behind, get stacked when they're ahead."

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are wrong when you implicate that i am using advice from a high stakes game to use in a low stakes one.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did not say that you were. i didn't even "implicate" it. i simply said that your post i was responding to exemplified the problem. i did not mean to say that you were actually DOING it, merely that your post showed WHY IT IS dangerous. my apologies if you were offended by that particular line. many other people DO use "fancy" plays from higher stakes games at their lower stakes games, and it is a problem.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't; however, i do incorporate a higher level-type thinking in the games i play which helps me make better decisions on average than the most $5 and $10 players [my problem is bad luck, bankroll, and time issues]. i also don't have a problem with a higher level player showing me how my thinking or line taken at that level can be wrong. that's what i'm here for. i happen to think the poster that PMd about improving my game sees that i probably have alot more potential than the average $5/$10 player [or i could be wrong /images/graemlins/grin.gif].

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's how my line went. obviously, i haven't taken the difference and quality of play into account though. wonder how i missed that?

[/ QUOTE ]

pounding away is all well and good until someone flashes a big red sign in front of your face that says "HEY YOU ARE BEAT ON THIS HAND." the lack of the ability to allow your opponent to flash such a sign in front of your face at a level where they will very, very rarely do it as a bluff, is what is missing from the line which just pushes on the turn. Additionally, at the 109s, even most of the fairly bad players who would call down value bets will not call on the turn if you push when they are beaten. That's what's missing from your line.

citanul

basically, pounding away shouldn't include "let them off cheap when they're behind, get stacked when they're ahead."

[/ QUOTE ]

this is mainly why my line advocated betting more on the flop and pushing on the turn. if you're not all-in on the turn, then you face an uncomfortable reraise. my thing is, how often is villian calling you with a better hand to make my line a problem? if anything, villian could have a weaker Ace and think it's good bcuz Unarmed did'nt bet stronger on the flop and turn. let's say Unarmed will call, then you face a problem on the river if an Ace or Queen does'nt fall. i wanna eliminate calling a reraise. if i'm beat, then you're calling all-in on the turn.

Comment more.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
i wanna eliminate calling a reraise. if i'm beat, then you're calling all-in on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is this: Your push doesn't get better hands to fold. It only gets hands that will call some value bets to fold. This is the worst situation possible, as you will lose the maximum when you're behind and make the minimum when you're ahead. Since you're either way behind or way ahead, pushing isn't eliminating draws or giving incorrect odds to someone.

If you decide that you're ahead and are willing to commit your chips, then why not make value bets and call reraises?

[citanul]

your most recent post seems to think that i'm getting all in on the turn. please see my pile of earlier posts today where i said that at the 100s if you're getting all in and called on the turn here you are behind and behind bad much too often. for that reason, against someone i *haven't* labeled a donk, i'm not calling a raise on the turn. now, is the opponent in this hand labeled a donk because of his earlier play? possibly.

however to answer the question you asked "how often is a hand better than yours calling on the flop to make my line a problem?" i'd guess that any hand that has you beaten on the flop is just calling in position, heads up, with a board like that, at the 109s, something &gt;80% of the time. some people play their sets fast on the flop like this because they find their opponents very willing to get it all in with any ace bigger than AT if it's only the flop. some like to call and then raise the turn because well, it gives someone who is bluffing another shot to bluff into you on the turn, and ties people who put too many chips in with a hand that's destroyed to the pot on the turn. they say things like "oh he can't be ahead, i get it in with AQ here."

as i said before as well, you're going to be bluff raised off this hand incredibly rarely in a 109 sng, so when you're raised, it's either because you're crushed or because someone really thinks their AJ (i don't htink that's 2 pair, i haven't checked) is good. at the 109s, it's a rare player who thinks their AJ is good and plays it in the way that this line was played.

"facing an uncomfortable raise" is not a good reason to push. if almost all the times he would have raised you he's just calling your push (which is the status if he is very rarely bluff you on the turn), you're just handing him your stack instead of allowing yourself to get away from the hand when beaten, even possibly. pushing the turn will extract from players at the 109s very rarely when you are ahead, as i said in an earlier post. value betting might extract.

if you honestly think you're ahead, again, then there's no such thing as an uncomfortable raise, since you're looking to get it in anyway. and clearly, pushing means you think you're ahead. so if your line is designed because you think you're ahead, it's the worst line for being ahead, because worse hands will not call you with any real frequency at the 109s. any other line, including min betting the turn, checkraiseing the turn, value betting the turn, is more likely to get all of your opponents chips in bad than pushing the turn.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wanna eliminate calling a reraise. if i'm beat, then you're calling all-in on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is this: Your push doesn't get better hands to fold. It only gets hands that will call some value bets to fold. This is the worst situation possible, as you will lose the maximum when you're behind and make the minimum when you're ahead. Since you're either way behind or way ahead, pushing isn't eliminating draws or giving incorrect odds to someone.

If you decide that you're ahead and are willing to commit your chips, then why not make value bets and call reraises?

[/ QUOTE ]

succinct, i like it.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
your most recent post seems to think that i'm getting all in on the turn. please see my pile of earlier posts today where i said that at the 100s if you're getting all in and called on the turn here you are behind and behind bad much too often. for that reason, against someone i *haven't* labeled a donk, i'm not calling a raise on the turn. now, is the opponent in this hand labeled a donk because of his earlier play? possibly.

however to answer the question you asked "how often is a hand better than yours calling on the flop to make my line a problem?" i'd guess that any hand that has you beaten on the flop is just calling in position, heads up, with a board like that, at the 109s, something &gt;80% of the time. some people play their sets fast on the flop like this because they find their opponents very willing to get it all in with any ace bigger than AT if it's only the flop. some like to call and then raise the turn because well, it gives someone who is bluffing another shot to bluff into you on the turn, and ties people who put too many chips in with a hand that's destroyed to the pot on the turn. they say things like "oh he can't be ahead, i get it in with AQ here."

as i said before as well, you're going to be bluff raised off this hand incredibly rarely in a 109 sng, so when you're raised, it's either because you're crushed or because someone really thinks their AJ (i don't htink that's 2 pair, i haven't checked) is good. at the 109s, it's a rare player who thinks their AJ is good and plays it in the way that this line was played.

"facing an uncomfortable raise" is not a good reason to push. if almost all the times he would have raised you he's just calling your push (which is the status if he is very rarely bluff you on the turn), you're just handing him your stack instead of allowing yourself to get away from the hand when beaten, even possibly. pushing the turn will extract from players at the 109s very rarely when you are ahead, as i said in an earlier post. value betting might extract.

if you honestly think you're ahead, again, then there's no such thing as an uncomfortable raise, since you're looking to get it in anyway. and clearly, pushing means you think you're ahead. so if your line is designed because you think you're ahead, it's the worst line for being ahead, because worse hands will not call you with any real frequency at the 109s. any other line, including min betting the turn, checkraiseing the turn, value betting the turn, is more likely to get all of your opponents chips in bad than pushing the turn.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

cool beans. something else to think about.

[Gramps]

[ QUOTE ]
Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think our difference of opinion is on how likely it is that the villan has a worse Ace. Of the times that that's what he has, you may make a bit less on average by checking. But....
...In the $109s and $215s (more in the $109s) there are a lot of loose/playmaking opponents who will splash around chips on Level 1 and put the test to the PFR who fires one bullet then shuts it down. Just because he called your raise and called your flop bet doesn't mean he has an Ace - he'll frequently have total shat and fold to your 2nd bullet/Turn bet, when if you check he might make a sizable bet himself drawing to 5, 3, 2, or 0 outs - and (if he checks behind you on the Turn) may call a River bet with a (still worse but with some showdown value) hand that would have folded to your 2nd bullet on the Turn. Thus, the times you are way ahead &amp; villan doesn't have an Ace, you'll make more on average by check-calling the Turn (or, if he makes a Turn big bet, coming over the top if you so desire).

An additional benefit to checking the Turn is that of the times you are already beat on the Turn and lead, intending to go to war on a raise, you'll probably end up losing all your chips (the times you don't resuck). The times you are beat and you check the Turn, you'll still end up with a playable stack the majority of the time (maybe only 500 chips or so, but still very playable - that other player will probably be value-betting his two pair/set that he wants calls from you on).

If there were a flush draw out, or a more coordinated board then checking would be more dangerous, but on this dry board against a loose/reckless player (at least one who raised T9o so that makes it much more likely that he's this type of player who could call your raise with a wide range of hands and call your flop bet to try and bluff you out on the Turn), I think it's a good line to take from both an "offensive" and "defensive" point of view. Not perfect every time (might get less out of a worse Ace on average), but no line ever is.

[curtains]

I think checking is fine.

[AbelM]

I would check-call the turn and check-call the river.

If i accidentally bet the same 150 on the turn i'd call and again check-call the river.

In your original suggestion, you said to put all our money in to see if we were winning or not. In other words, because we don't know if villain has us beat we figure it out by the following algorithm:

If our stack goes to villain, we're beat.
If villain folds, we're not, and could've had more money if we'd bet less.

You said yourself that villain will fold hands that are beat by us and call hands that have us beat. That's exactly the worst situation possible. Just because this tends to take the pot doesn't mean that it's a better play than other lines. I can win a pot when I flop quads by pushing for 10x pot, but there are better lines.

[durron597]

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Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the plan then push over his turn raise, I don't see the argument here.

Now, if you don't think he will go to war with a weaker ace then I don't see how this can be the plan ????

[Oluwafemi]

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I would check-call the turn and check-call the river.

If i accidentally bet the same 150 on the turn i'd call and again check-call the river.

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-?how much are you willing to call after checking on the turn and river?-