Hand protection ruling

[PokerPrince]

Tonight I played in an amazing 20-40 game with a player brand new to poker on my right. He usually plays extremely high limit baccarat and blackjack so the money in this game means little to him. I think he was just there to gamble it up and have some social fun.

Anyways, this player would constantly hold his cards out in front of him not only preflop, but postflop as well. I, and the player to his direct right could clearly see his cards, which was amazingly profitable for both of us.

I noticed the dealer giving him concerned looks during the first few rounds of play and I tried my best to not blatantly stare at his hand. The dealer finally comes out and says, "Sir, you're going to have to protect your hand so the players can't see what you have. If these players beside you can see what you have, it's not fair to the others across the table. If you keep carelessly looking at your cards, I'm going to expose your hand." Man was I surly. What the hell does this dealer care!? Is it the dealer's job to assist in the protection of the player's hand? I think it should be totally at the player's discretion. I whispered to the dealer, "You just cost yourself a lot of tokes pal."

PokerPrince

[Ralle]

Usually in poker, if someone makes mistakes, it's up to anybody who can, to take advantage of it. You might e.g. take advantage of a maniac sitting to your left by check-raising with your great hands, thereby trapping the whole field. I don't think the dealer would tell the maniac not to bet so much.

On the other hand, there could be suspicions of collusion if someone shows his cards to his neighbors. That's obviously not the case here, but I'm speaking about the general case. Anyway the other players wouldn't know if there were collusion going on or not. In the game I play, if someone shows another player his cards after the showdown, he is forced to show his cards to the entire table.

[bernie]

i think the dealer was right. he was protecting the game and the other players. next it should be ok to speak in a foreign language huh? i mean, what does the dealer care...

let's look at this from a different angle. say your buddy is playing with you. and he's on youre right. he's exposing his cards to you the whole time. could be a case for collusion couldnt it? which IS unfair to the other players at the table. whether it's intended or not.

now, what if you were a player across the table from this guy and you couldnt see the guys exposed cards. would you then tell the dealer how he cost himself alot of tokes, or would you say nice job.

the guy is still a fish, you have position on him. the prime position at that. you should of just enjoyed it while you could.

glad im not a dealer. thankless job.

b

[Ulysses]

PokerPrince,

I think you are way off base here.

If I were another player at the table, I would tip this dealer extra to make up for you. I can't believe you are criticizing a dealer for trying to run a fair game.

Now, if the player keeps accidentally turning his cards over and showing them to the whole table, that's a different matter. It is the player's responsibility to protect his own hand and the dealer is not there to help any specific player. However, in this situation, this player is putting all of the other players except his two neighbors at a disadvantage. I admire the dealer for trying to keep the game fair for the rest of the table.

[CrackerZack]

agreed

[Big Al]

I agree, you are way off base here Pokerprick, I mean Prince. The dealer obviously saw you and another guy were picking off his cards. He gave you a chance to say something and you didnt, so he spoke up. What you should have done, and what the ethical thing to do is, to tell the player one time that you can see his cards. If he continutes to expose them, then he is fair game. To not say anything though, opens you up to have the dealer say something. One of his responsibilties is to maintain the integrity of the game. You are dead wrong.

[PokerPrince]

I don't care about ethics, I care about money Big Ass, I mean Al. Anyone who would speak up about how they can see his hole cards are basically saying, "Hey dealer, I don't want to make extra money off this extreme advantage, can you tell this guy to stop making me money?".

I bet most of you guys are bent out of shape because of my tokes comment. Well deal with it. First off, the dealers at this casino don't make their own tips, they pool them with the others. Secondly, I don't care about the dealers income, I care about mine. I'm there to play for rent and food.

There is also a board of rules at the front of the room which states the rules. One such rule states, "All players are to protect their hands at their own discretion." Still the dealers job to protect that player and others? I think not. If any of those other players had any gray matter whatsoever, they would have been fighting for the seat to his right when it opened up. It stayed open for 2 hours after the lady left.

PokerPrince

[Ulysses]

I don't care about ethics
I do care about ethics.

I bet most of you guys are bent out of shape because of my tokes comment.
I don't care how much you do or don't tip the dealer.

I'm there to play for rent and food.
I'm not there to play for rent and food.

Still the dealers job to protect that player and others? I think not.
I do think it is the dealer's job to run a fair game.

[bernie]

he may be on a bad losing streak and the rent is due. but he's also hungry. haha

on top of that, he wouldnt mind giving another player this advantage over him if he was on the other side of the table. after all, fair is fair. and game integrity is for suckers.

b

[PokerPrince]

Angry? Nah. I truly wish I had your ethics/morals though. I've never been one to "do the right thing" and help out another player. I just think the game is like a war for the chips. If you are exposing your hand you have a weakness in your battle plan that others should be able to take advantage of it. I didn't notice any of the other players mentioning it whatsoever. If another player across the table felt it was a tactical disadvantage to him, he should have said something. I would have no problem with this. But no one was paying attention. No one cared.

PokerPrince

[PokerPrince]

A good friend of mine just explained your points in a way that made sense to me. "It's not the dealer's job to make you money, it's his job to be a third party that makes the game as fair as possible for everyone at the table." I can now see why the dealer did what he did, although if I was the dealer, I wouldn't say a word. Perhaps cause I'm a player.

PokerPrince

[bernie]

glad to hear someone explained it to you that you can understand where we're coming from. understanding the 'whole' game, and not 'just' your agenda may even make you that much more dangerous on the table.

have a good one

b

[Tommy Angelo]

"I whispered to the dealer, "You just cost yourself a lot of tokes pal."

If I am unhappy with my airline, I still tip the skycap. If I am unhappy with my food, I still tip the waitress.

I don't see the dealer's comment as being any different than his shuffle. He was doing what he perceived to be his job. Without knowing the management's dealer training/education/procedure policy, it is impossible to judge the dealer's action as correct or not, and therefore, like the skycap who slows me down with a tedious form to fill out, I don't see why his tip should be affected.

Tommy

[ACPlayer]

The dealer absolutely must point this out to the other player. The dealer must protect the interests of the individual player as well as the others at the table.

[FatLoser]

If I'm sitting next to someone who's not protecting their hand and allowing me to see it without putting an effort into doing it I will tell them at least once, sometimes twice depending on what I think of the person.

However, if he keep doing it, that's fine with me and I will definitely use the information.

FatLoser

[Ray Zee]

if a dealer sees this and doesnt correct the situation he is guilty of collusion with the player and should be fired. absolutely he is cheating. the playing is using bad ethics in my opinion, but its an individual thing and i can see both sides to that. but the dealer by being complacent, is cheating for the players seeing the cards.
the players are really cheating the other players because they have info not available to them. only is it not cheating, if the other players at the table know it and dont care. but it is in effect robbing the new player.
it would be similar if the cards were marked and you were able to read them even though you didnt put the marked cards in the game. it would still be considered cheating to read them against your opponents.

[Trefo]

I agree with Ray but I would not say anything to the others if i could see his cards the whole time. It's up to the dealer. I would understand if it was a 3-6 table and he was just learning but if you jump into a 20-40 game and don't know what your doing then you deserve to lose.

[SoBeDude]

Well said Ray.

[Instinct]

Obviously a player like this is a new one to the game. Surely we want him back, and to some extent it would be beneficial for him to learn a little. I am not one that ever likes to see a player offering free advice at the table, but talking about the basics of the game, and being polite about it, is not only beneficial to your game but will make the whole experience more fun for the new player.
things like explaining the blinds, betting structure and obviously hiding your cards should be a given IMO.

A few months ago the same happened to me. Right away I expained to the new player that he shouldn't lift his cards up to look at them but should try and do it so no one could see them.

Some people may disagree, but I like to still have a level of integrity when I'm playing.

[bernie]

as the dealer colluding with the player.

not sure how i missed that..

where's that two by four, it was laying around here.

there it is. BAP! (hits self in head)

ahhh, that feels better

good points

b

[andyfox]

What diference would the stakes make? Some players start at 3-6, some at .50-1, some at 20-40. If it's wrong at one table, it's wrong at the other.

[M.B.E.]

<font color="purple">I don't care about ethics, I care about money</font color>

I used to wonder whether your handle was derived from the Machiavelli book. Now I know.

In any event, I have no respect for your attitude toward poker. It doesn't matter that poker might be your sole source of income: you still should have some ethical standards. Even conventional businesses, whose primary purpose is to turn a profit, usually try to act ethically.

<font color="purple">There is also a board of rules at the front of the room which states the rules. One such rule states, "All players are to protect their hands at their own discretion."</font color>

Huh? That wording is odd. Are you sure you didn't just make it up? Normally I would give a 2+2 poster the benefit of the doubt, but you've already said you have no ethics so in your case I won't do that.

[PokerPrince]

I have to be truly honest with you here, I don't care what you think. Whether you respect me or not it makes no difference to me. As I stated in a post above, I wish I had a more ethical outlook. I wish my morals were at a higher state than they are. But they are not. I'll take any little piece of advantage I can from a game. If you don't like it, cry me a river.

PokerPrince

I thought your friend's explanation made sense to you and I would have left it at that. You wish you have a more ethical outlook and higher moral standards and yet your motto is you'll checkraise your grandmother for her medicine money? Hmmmm.

[PokerPrince]

My friend's explanation did make more sense to me than the ones made on here. It was clearly stated in intellectual terms with no banter or name calling. I now believe that the dealer, a moral man, was doing what he thought was best for the game. That's his job. Discussion is over about that subject.

Next subject: my ethics/morals. I have little of either and probably never will. In a perfect world everyone would be helping little old ladies across the street and no crimes would be committed. Guess what? This isn't a perfect world and I'm not a perfect man.

PokerPrince

[Rick Nebiolo]

I think the dealer did the right thing but I don't like the way he did it. The guy came to the card room to have fun and he gets scolded and may have been humiliated. Better to let the player know using a more casual comment or two. If that doesn't work then go to plan B.

Tommy could write a script for a better way to do it /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Tommy,

Great point. Unfortunately, in the real world, a mediocre waitress in a good spot will make more than a great waitress in a tough spot.

~ Rick

[Homer]

I wish I had a more ethical outlook. I wish my morals were at a higher state than they are.

Then [censored] make it so.

-- Homer