TT vs The field

[wuarhg]

BB is loose coldcalling alot preflop but ok postflop. 45/16, pf agg 1.5-2
UTG is very loose passive, 70/1, pf agg 1
MP is a LAG 41/26, pf agg 2

I wasn't sure if I wanted a big field here but I guess money in with the best of it is always good or am I wrong here?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button folds.

Turn: (9.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Any comments on why you checked the flop as the pf raiser.

I lead this flop every time to prevent it from getting checked through by people with overcards.

Every other street seems standard

[TheMetetron]

Bet the best hand on the flop?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the best hand on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so you don't get me wrong... I do understand what you are trying to do, but I really don't like it.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the best hand on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so you don't get me wrong... I do understand what you are trying to do, but I really don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like it either but not because it would check through -- rare @10/20 in my experience. every time I bet into the field when I raise and there's no A or K on the board I get raised -- so you have to bet here and possibly 3bet.

[wuarhg]

I check this flop with AK so I mix in a few checks with overpairs. I don't check a 100% with AK and I don't checkraise a 100% with overpairs or something else.

[TheMetetron]

Don't get fancy with big fields. Play it straightforward and you will maximize your equity. HU is the time for the sexy.

Bet/3bet is the best line here for maximum chance at thinning the field and getting money in with your equity edge.

[wuarhg]

Good point. Perhaps I got too fancy here /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bigwinner]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the best hand on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to play you heads up.

[Jeff W]

Metetron speaks the truth.

[ghostface]

Would we raise this pf if it were 8s?

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Would we raise this pf if it were 8s?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would I raise 88 here? Yes. 77 too.

[rory]

Everyone who thinks you should bet out on this flop should go back and reread all their poker books.

The pot is very large. The hero has to do whatever he can to try to protect his pretty vulnerable hand. All of heros thought processes and energy should be focused on figuring out how to protect his hand. Betting out does not protect his hand at all. Check-raising might, if the bet will come from his right. Oh, look at this, MP is a LAG, who is on the heros right and he may bet or raise a bet to him, allowing hero to 3-bet to knock players out. Checking rules.

Check is perfect. Hero should auto-check all big pocket pairs here to try to check raise and thin the field. That's right. Check JJ, QQ, KK, AA. Check 'em all.

The bet in this hand came from the wrong place though, from heros immediate left. Since hero cannot face the field with two cold, hero should just call the flop and figure out what to do on the turn. Either betting out and hoping to get raised or by check-raising. If another check-raise is attempted and the bet comes from his left again, well, hero didn't succeed in protecting his hand, which sucks, but at least he will get 2 big bets in from a couple folks when his hand is likely best.

So you had half of it right. The flop check. Just lay off on the check raise unless it is from the other side of you next time. Nice idea.

[helpmeout]

Just bet the flop and hope someone with a 7 raises you to clear out the field.

[helpmeout]

If he hadnt of raised the pot then a checkraise is a better move because anyone with a draw as well as a pair is likely to bet.

However since hero raised preflop people expect him to bet any overcards so it is highly likely any pair is going to raise him to cut down the field.

This allows hero to 3 bet and force people to call 2 cold from every position (those who are positioned after the raiser will face 2 cold and those who are positioned after hero who called a bet have to call another 2 when you 3bet)not just those positioned before the late position bettor.

You also risk 0 chance of giving everyone a freecard and build a larger pot with the best hand.

[rory]

If hero has overcards, he should check the flop too.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the best hand on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to play you heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting frisky mighty early in our 2+2 career, aren't we?

This hand isn't heads-up. It is against a large field. There is no need to get fancy in a family pot. Our two main goals are to protect our hand (1) and maximize our earnings (2).

I disagree with rory that the best way to acheive this is through a check-raise after someone we assume (based solely on PT stats and no reads) will bet. I think we are more likely to get raised after we make the obvious contiuation bet on the flop that people expect from overcards. Hopefully, this raise thins the field and also allows us to 3-bet the flop and lead the turn.

Sometimes, this plan will fail... just like check-raising to thin the field will fail sometimes, too. I just feel that betting out looks a lot less suspect to someone paying attention (doesn't a check after a PF raise sending warning signals through YOUR head??). I really, really dislike getting checked through on the flop, though it probably isn't much of a concern here.

Anyways, I will agree with rory that if we went for the check-raise here, we simply can't do it given where the bet came from. Either try again on the turn or simply bet it and hope to get raised (I like option 2).

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
If hero has overcards, he should check the flop too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree with this more than rory's other points.

Betting on the flop does not protect your hand. You were right to check in hopes that the button would bet, but the button didnt bet. The bb bet. The raise you followed up with didnt make a lot of sense. You went for the check-raise w/ the button so to protect your hand (I assume), but when that plan fell through, you made your hand even more vunerable by committing everyone to the now even larger pot. Had you not raised the flop, your bet on the turn would have knocked everyone out (as long as they didnt get that queen). By the looks of it on the river you were drawn out on by someone that had either just a 3 on the flop or a queen on the turn.

[ALL1N]

I'd definately bet this flop with TT. IMO, checkraising "for protection" is unlikely to be best for a few reasons:

A- The only hands we're trying to protect against are hands with exactly 6 outs against us. That is, 2 overcards to tens. No pair with 5 outs is folding for 2 bets, and neither is A4/A5. And since nobody raised preflop, these 6-outers are unlikely to be out against us (AQ/KJ etc are usually raising hands). Letting people pay 1SB to draw to their 3 outers (only one overcard to T) isn't a problem, especially as they will sometimes be sharing outs.

B- There is really no expectation that someone will bet this flop. It's not a pairing flop. These guys may be loose, but do we really expect them to have a 3 or 2? Will the LAG bet? Why would he?? Surely he knows how poor his chances are of thinning the field on this flop with 1SB.

I say bet and hope that we get raised.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who thinks you should bet out on this flop should go back and reread all their poker books.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which parts of which books are you thinking about?

We got 2 LAGs in this hand, one on our left and one on our right, both only called preflop but BB called from with really good odds so he probably can have any2, including the rags now on flop. If we bet flop (which everyone will think is overcards) BB will raise any pair and often with overcards. Then we can 3bet and get a lot of money in when we are big favourites.

If BB doesnt fold but only calls the LAG on our right will raise any pair and sometimes overcards and we can again 3bet when we got best hands.

Also, I dont see what we are afraid off? How likely will any of the others have 2 overcards to our Ts? Not often at all. They will think any hand with 2 cards above 7 means they got 6 outs but normally they chase 3 outs, and there is a decent chance they - if they call or raise - are chasing same overcards.

Also, in this actual hand when our Hero checks, I dont see why we should only call? There are 16 overcards in deck. And the normal scenario - even if turn is another rag - is that BB will bet again and make it impossible to force them out.

Yes, if we raise when everyone called BB on flop we will give them better odds on turn. But why is this? It is because we got more money in on a street where the others probably got 3 or 5 outs.

[Poldi]

We have an equity edge on the flop but against the whole field it is not that big. The turn card will change our equity a lot. You miss an equity advantage to make use of an even greater equity advantage on a favourable turn card.

This is the idea but to make perfect use of it you kinda have to expect the same action on the flop (being able to trap most or all of them for 2 bets). You cant expect anyone to bet the turn when another rag hits as there were so many callers on the flop.
So in my eyes it was correct to use the equity advantage on the turn as you have to bet the turn anyways so it doesnt get checked through.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
We have an equity edge on the flop but against the whole field it is not that big.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are against 3 players. Lets say 1 of them hit a pair on flop and got 5 outs. The other 2 got 1 overcard, and not the same, for 3 outs. They got 11 cards, we got the rest of the deck. We will be ahead about 3/4 on turn. If we raise we will get 4SB into pot, 3SB of those are ours. And we pay 1SB. We will win 1BB if we raise flop. A good player at this level will win 2BB/100 so we need a pretty good reason to not go for that 1BB.