prob lots of hands

[1800GAMBLER]

Just a frequency question.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button ($1970)
SB ($2196)
BB ($1004)
Hero ($2548)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($160) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $158</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $500</font>

SB is a reg. that's pretty much all my knowledge, nothing crazy either way.

How often are you just giving up? How often are doing anything else? And if so, what?

I haate giving up here all the time, it would totally unbalance things since any flop raise or c/r would have great success if i just gave up. I think i shall balance it by pushing any sets, any overpairs and say Ace high 1/4 times, say everytime my highest card has a bckdoor flush to make it somewhat random. Comments? Too often? Too shitty?

[Lucky]

I give up here almost every time too. I think to play on, you need:

1. solid read
2. assurance you will playing with this guy every night or so, and are sending him a message to not mess with you, etc.

[Ulysses]

You are also allowed to check behind.

[1800GAMBLER]

I balance that way too, yet i can't help myself with 'friendly' flops, Txx raindow, this one isn't a great example; so i'm not really balancing, overpassive on bad flops and overaggressive on nice flops.

Txx raindow flops; should i give up the EV for balance reasons?

I'm also wondering if i should really care about balance issues yet, seems like these guys rarely ever play back?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
seems like these guys rarely ever play back

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like if they rarely play back, then you might as well fold. You only have 6 outs at most, and are likely to be reverse dominated. You could even be drawing nearly dead to a set.

If they're folding anywhere near 50% of the time, these flop bets are barely -EV, and all the times when you DO flop something, and they don't believe you, should more than compensate for it.

[macdafunk]

i think 1/4 is too often. against a good regular i will push maybe 10% of the time leaning towards early (in the session) rather than later for obvious reasons. even if called you can exploit it later on vs anybody paying attendtion at the table.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a frequency question.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button ($1970)
SB ($2196)
BB ($1004)
Hero ($2548)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($160) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $158</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $500</font>

SB is a reg. that's pretty much all my knowledge, nothing crazy either way.

How often are you just giving up? How often are doing anything else? And if so, what?

I haate giving up here all the time, it would totally unbalance things since any flop raise or c/r would have great success if i just gave up. I think i shall balance it by pushing any sets, any overpairs and say Ace high 1/4 times, say everytime my highest card has a bckdoor flush to make it somewhat random. Comments? Too often? Too shitty?

[/ QUOTE ]

you have 200BB's and you want to push Ace High 1/4 the time?
fishy.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a frequency question.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button ($1970)
SB ($2196)
BB ($1004)
Hero ($2548)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($160) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $158</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $500</font>

SB is a reg. that's pretty much all my knowledge, nothing crazy either way.

How often are you just giving up? How often are doing anything else? And if so, what?

I haate giving up here all the time, it would totally unbalance things since any flop raise or c/r would have great success if i just gave up. I think i shall balance it by pushing any sets, any overpairs and say Ace high 1/4 times, say everytime my highest card has a bckdoor flush to make it somewhat random. Comments? Too often? Too shitty?

[/ QUOTE ]

you have 200BB's and you want to push Ace High 1/4 the time?
fishy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is if the balance is correct it's impossible for it to be fishy; the other plaayer has no options. Say i check behind Ax 1/3 and then push it 1/4 that's 1/6 of the time i'll have 45 combos of Ax effectively 8 combos, so bayes' wise when i push 8 times i will have Ace high.

8 times ace high.
3 times flush draw with overs.
24 times overpair.
6 times a set.

so that's 30 legit vs 11 fake, which is almost perfectly balanced against an average hand of T,x; weighting against T,x is crappy too, because when he has T,x flush i make pot yet stack off when he has a set.

Again though, i even wonder why i want to balance my plays against these guys.

[VanVeen]

Of course this is great theory, but you'd have to start preflop when deciding which hands to raise and with what frequency to ensure that your hand ranges for various flop actions are 'balanced'. The complexity of this problem balloons when one considers the various pot sizes/raise sizes/stack sizes on the flop vs. the preflop hand ranges of various other players who are constantly trying to adapt to your play (and change their hand ranges) and how those hand ranges interact with various flops. How often are they flopping hands of X strength? Y? Z? How often will they check-raise with hands of X strength to $x? Y? Z?

This is especially pointless vs. most 2knl players. The game is very unsophisticated and almost no one is playing back with air. Obviously there are some, especially floating around on the shorthanded tables, but many of them are either doing it to excess (or are giving away too much information preflop/later streets, making them easy to exploit) or doing it so infrequently that you needn't adjust.

Hand range balancing is definitely something to think about, but working out how often you should be holding hands of X, Y, and Z strength when you raise all-in to put your opponent to a neutral EV decision (and then making adjustments based on his play to punish his errors) is just not possible in a dynamic environment. Intractable problem. Concept great, though. Plz stop posting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KaneKungFu123]

with 200bb stacks i dont think Tx is the average hand making that raise.

[GimmeDaWatch]

Perhaps this is just over my head, but isnt the point that you don't wanna just let someone check-raise you on a low uncoordinated flop any time they feel like it and know that you'll fold anything but an overpair? But then you say your opponents hardly ever seem to play back, so if thats the case why do you need to randomize? As a follow up to this post, does anyone reading this have regular players they'll pick on by check-raising this flop b/c they know their opponent will auto-fold overs, and even overpairs alot of the time in a full game.

[fsuplayer]

I dont know why no one has corrected you yet, but the stack sizes are about 100BB's.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know why no one has corrected you yet, but the stack sizes are about 100BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

good catch. 800's other thread was under this one and was 5/10.

[cwl]

i dont think your points about balancing, etc really apply here. if your opponents were playing correctly then i think your questions would be legit but i dont think they are, for the most part, in that game. i feel like most players just conceede the pot in this spot too often. given that, when they do play back against me they are welcome to the pot.

i guess my point is if my opponents are systematically making a mistake then im going to play in a way which takes advantage of this. this makes my own play exploitable by an observant opponent but as long as no one takes advantage of things i dont care whether my play is balanced.

[fimbulwinter]

i honestly dont see what's wrong with setting an out cap and playing it that way (ie all set and all 7 outs or betters).

i mean really GT wise you're not presenting ev neutrality that way but having sweated that game and talked to a few 2+2ers i'd estimate that such a game is both far from necessary and far from optimal.

fim