Bluff gone wrong......

[Schmed]

Late last night we were playing short handed 4-8 at harrahs, (5 way). I was in the BB with 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . two limpers then a raise, next guy folds, I reraise, two limpers fold original raiser calls.

Flop

Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif j /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

I bet, he raises, I reraise, he calls,

Turn
10 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I check, he checks

River

7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I bet he calls.

I win /forums/images/icons/grin.gif with a pair of 7's, he never showed but I suspect A9s or something, really who knows.

Thoughts...... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ....well it all wound up okay in the end. I was on a full on bluff and was hoping that my show of strength would have him fold on the flop. If it was any other player I would have folded when he raised me on the flop. This guy I just knew didn't have anything. I seriously think he started getting a bit more aggressive when he saw me get aggressive and make some people lay down some hands. He had preflop raised the 4 previous pots and I was thinking that I would make that move when my BB came and he auto-preflop raised. The only reason I bet my 7 was he checked when I checked the turn. That's when I figured he didn't have anything and when my 7 came I thought....'man that just might be enough'.....and it was...

I guess the question I have to ask about this hand is more about the situation. When it's short handed like that I seem to have a lot of success because I'll get more aggressive. I guess it helps that most people see me as someone who always has a hand when I am raising/betting. I'll throw away a lot of hands when it's a full game but when it get's short, especially as short as 5, it seems to pay to open it up a bit. Am I right?? I seem to have a lot of success in these late night short handed situations. I guess people are a little slow at 4 am in a card room.... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

I don't like anything about this hand.

First off, why re-raise with seven high? If you're going to play it, keep the limpers in the middle and make some money if you get a big flop. Short-handed is all about big cards, which is exactly what you don't have. I think putting more money in and limiting the field with 72s is ridiculous.

On the flop, if you're going to make a move, I think check-raising then betting the turn is better. But your play here, with a good read, isn't absolutely horrible.

Now, the turn. Bet. You've just put down the move on the flop. What was all that about if you're not going to follow through on the turn?

And you misplayed the river as well. If I think he has nothing, I'll check when I make my pair, since now I can beat nothing. If, on the other hand, I make no pair, I'll bet because my seven-high is unlikely to be good enough to beat nothing.

Instead, you bet when you make some showdown value. How likely are you to get called by a hand you beat? Not very would be my guess. And what do you do if your opponent now raises the river?

With your read of your opponent having nothing, checking is much better. If you're confident of your read, snap off his bluff when he bets the river.

As to your general question, yes, opening up and being more aggressive is definitely important in short-handed play. However, playing big cards and pairs is the way to go, not little drawing hands.

[taiga]

I agree with Ulysses. Thanks for the explanation.

[Schmed]

Yeah I doubted that this play would get much love... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
But if I posted my best plays or my best lay downs wht fun would that be?

As flawed as it was at the time my thinking with the reraise preflop was I really wasn't playing my hand but representing something else. If a face card hit the flop and he didn't have it I wanted him to think that I had a pair of them in my hand. That was the thought at the time. It obviously didn't work as he didn't leave my pot when he was supposed to on the flop when he didn't catch.

I checked the turn with a half a mind to check raise if he bet. I honestly don't know how sold on the idea I was. When I was thinking about this hand I really was questioning myself here. I really should have bet the turn. My excuse is I think I was re-reading a chapter on semi-bluffing in HPFAP when I was in the bathroom the other day and the line about not semibluffing the turn was stuck in my head....... /forums/images/icons/confused.gif Then again there was nothing semi about this.........

Your comments on the river are pretty interesting. I would have bet had I not caught as well. It's the only way I could have won the pot. The one thought I was thinking was that he may have thought that I was trying to check raise him on the turn when I didn't bet. My bet on the river would be consistent with a big set on the flop that failed to get someone to bet in to an attempted check raise on the turn. The guy probably had the exact same thought about me that I had about him.......'he aint got $&!% '

Thanks man, much appreciated.

[Ulysses]

I really wasn't playing my hand but representing something else. If a face card hit the flop and he didn't have it I wanted him to think that I had a pair of them in my hand.

That's a reasonable thing to do short-handed, except that....

This guy I just knew didn't have anything. I seriously think he started getting a bit more aggressive when he saw me get aggressive and make some people lay down some hands.

....you've already pegged this opponent as someone who is suspicious of you and likely to play back at you. He's the exact wrong guy to try this type of play against.

Long story short, you put 6SB into the pot with seven-high against an opponent who won't lay down for you. That's what you want to avoid next time. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Ulysses]

The one thought I was thinking was that he may have thought that I was trying to check raise him on the turn when I didn't bet. My bet on the river would be consistent with a big set on the flop that failed to get someone to bet in to an attempted check raise on the turn.

If that is how you play flopped sets, that's just terrible. You 3-bet the flop and got the last bet in. If you're going to go for a turn checkraise, you should call his flop raise, not 3-bet. If there's a straight and flush draw on the flop and you always raise for a free card and the turn is a blank and your opponent is very aggressive, then maybe a flop 3-bet followed by a turn checkraise might work. But in general, you really need to bet your set on the turn after 3-betting on the flop.

[cferejohn]

Just to pile on, *if* I was going to try something like this, I would re-reaise a guy who had open raised from late position, since he could be stealing with very little. A guy who raises two limpers probably has some kind of hand.

Anyway, it worked out this time and probably got you all sorts of strange calls for the rest of the night, so congratulations. I wouldn't try it again unless it was a pure image play and you were expecting to lose.

[Schmed]

no it's not. It was just my justification as I was walking away in my mind as to why I didn't bet the turn. At the time I was thinking that the didn't bet in to me because he was afraid of a check raise.....hence my justification.... /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

[Schmed]

"Just to pile on, *if* I was going to try something like this, I would re-reaise a guy who had open raised from late position, since he could be stealing with very little. A guy who raises two limpers probably has some kind of hand."

I did reraise him. Him just calling meant very little because it just seems that a lot of people are afraid to take it to three or 4 bets preflop in these games.

Like I said the only real reason I was making that move was because it was shorthanded. I've been trying to work on my short handed play and to play a little more aggressive.

The real flaw, outside of not betting the turn, in my play was the person I was doing it against. He had folded out a couple of times before that hand, (smartly I might add because I had solid hands when he did), and I think he had it in his mind to call me down. Trying that play against someone I knew was going to call me down was probably my biggest error here.

I bluff occasionally. You have to. I will straight bluff from a late position at least once per session. I semi bluff more often. I try not to do it too often and in the right places but that's probably the part of the learning curve I am on now.

Thanks for the input