Elitist Reasons For "Life Not Worth Living"

[David Sklansky]

Another pet peeve of mine are people who throw around ridiculous comments about how certain scenarios would make life not worth living (or alternatively how the abscence of those scenarios is what makes life worth living).

"The unexamined life is not worth living"

"What use is life without 'meaning'"?

"We must support the fine arts in this community because it is those things that make life worth living"

"We must outlaw necrophilia contracts even if the money can be used to save many lives because if we give up our dignity, life is not worth living. Ditto if we analyse all decisons with a cost benefit analysis."

Now I fully agree that examining our lives, having a ballet in our city, maintaining dignity, finding meaning, and allowing irrational emotions to sometimes take over, are worthwile endeavors.

And I am willing to assume that the people who say that the stuff about what makes life worth living are exaggerating. They wouldn't kill themselves if they lost those things.

But I maintain that the statements aren't even close to being true. Not at least for all animals, 99% of 16 year old girls, and 97% of the world in general. And most of the 3% who think they feel otherwise really don't. They are just in a place where their other need's are already taken care of, or perhaps they have lost any chance for them. In many ways we should feel sorry for these people.

Don't you think that if I offered $1,000,000 to a struggling family in Haiti to buy a member of the families future dead body for necrophilia purposes most would JOYFULLY take it. And how much would I have to pay the average person to agree to never go to an opera or an art museum?

What makes life worth living is, as the Declaration of Independence implies, The Pursuit of Happiness. (Not always short term happiness though since it might cut down long term happiness.) That might be watching your kids grow up, playing with a frisbee, or yes, getting lap dances. (I wonder how many of those who read my topless dancer answers to meaning of life questions, realized that I was trying to make this point.) For a rare few it is patronizing the arts, discussing philosophy, maintaining dignity, or finding meaning. Fine. Whatever flicks your bic. But that stuff means little or nothing to dolphins, struggling parents, or even the great majority of well off, happy people. And there is no intrinsic reason it should.

There are levels of sophistication and meaning, just as there are levels of intelligence, levels of social development, and levels of emotional development.

[ QUOTE ]
But that stuff means little or nothing to dolphins, struggling parents, or even the great majority of well off, happy people. And there is no intrinsic reason it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

It 'should' mean something because a greater level of self awareness and of the world results in an appreciation of such things. Learning to understand life and its subtleties is something to strive for. There are many ways to make a clock/painting/car or to raise a child/have a conversation/write a book on poker, but some are simply better than others in every meaningful and practical way. Similarly, one person's values, beliefs and tastes may be superior to another's.

To summarise this scatterbrained thread: Life and humanity are simply poorer without certain things. The hyperboles you quoted above are a way of expressing that sentiment.

[David Sklansky]

It shoud mean something to everybody. But it is by no means what makes life worth living.

[Non_Comformist]

[ QUOTE ]
It shoud mean something to everybody. But it is by no means what makes life worth living.

[/ QUOTE ]

those things don't really mean [censored] to me and for the most part I like my life as is and whatever parts are lacking are not going to filled by an appreciation for the arts.

good post.

To get more on topic with your post....Then what does make life worth living? Is it just the pursuit of happiness (whatever that may be?)

For me, the life of 90% of the population would drive me to blow my brains out. It's simply mindless.

What makes my life worth living are my family and friends (the biggest part), curiosity about the world and everything in it, a desire to accomplish various things, and some of life's pleasures (women, travel, good conversation, the arts, good food, the unexpected).

[David Sklansky]

"For me, the life of 90% of the population would drive me to blow my brains out. It's simply mindless"

I assume that you are not talking about their poverty. I might feel the same. But my cat doesn't. And obviously they don't either.

Meanwhile what about those people who don't think about art, dignity, or meaning, but care and know a lot more more about DNA and the theory of relativity than the opera buffs. How do they compare using your criteria?

[ QUOTE ]
I might feel the same. But my cat doesn't. And obviously they don't either.

[/ QUOTE ]
And neither do people that have had a lobotomy or are mind-[censored] by drugs. They're happy staring at the wall all day. No more meaning required.

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile what about those people who don't think about art, dignity, or meaning, but care and know a lot more more about DNA and the theory of relativity than the opera buffs. How do they compare using your criteria?

[/ QUOTE ]
Criteria? What criteria?

[goofball]

So, months of intense discussion on god, ethics, meaning, and so forth has yielded "Do what makes you happy"

I like it.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
What makes life worth living is, as the Declaration of Independence implies, The Pursuit of Happiness. (Not always short term happiness though since it might cut down long term happiness.) That might be watching your kids grow up, playing with a frisbee, or yes, getting lap dances. (I wonder how many of those who read my topless dancer answers to meaning of life questions, realized that I was trying to make this point.) For a rare few it is patronizing the arts, discussing philosophy, maintaining dignity, or finding meaning. Fine. Whatever flicks your bic. But that stuff means little or nothing to dolphins, struggling parents, or even the great majority of well off, happy people. And there is no intrinsic reason it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. Only I would say that it's in the pursuit of spiritual growth (again, my use of this word doesn't really concern God or meaning, but emotional health and maturity) that we are able to really find long term happiness. Even then, some of the things in life that allow us the most spiritual growth (for example, the process of dying) may never actually give us a "happy" feeling, but they are still one of the reasons life is worthwhile.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
It 'should' mean something because a greater level of self awareness and of the world results in an appreciation of such things. Learning to understand life and its subtleties is something to strive for. There are many ways to make a clock/painting/car or to raise a child/have a conversation/write a book on poker, but some are simply better than others in every meaningful and practical way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I understand what you're saying. You are saying that we should strive not only to be individually happy, but to try to work to achieve "social evolution" by doing our part to push society that much farther (by pushing ourselves to be that much more perfect). I would agree with you, and I think in a way David would too. The way he talks about "long term happiness" makes me think he is referring to giving up current happiness or ease in order to have more benefits in the future, and I can't help but align this with the concept of spiritual growth which is my central answer to these types of questions. So I think we are all really thinking along the same lines, but just using different vocabularies.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I would love to argue with you one something DS, but I've yet to disagree with you

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I would love to argue with you one something DS, but I've yet to disagree with you

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't let That stop you. I don't.

PairTheBoard

[ QUOTE ]
I would love to argue with you one something DS, but I've yet to disagree with you

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't disagree with him, because he never has a point. Classic Socratic teaching method, refined by incorporating the Paris school of thought. Also known as 'hit n run'.

Yeah, I think that's part of it, but sometimes he does make a point, and I always seem to agree

[Triumph36]

What a mundane, utilitarian point you're making.

I believe the phrase 'life not worth living' is hardly meant to be taken literally in these cases - to me, things like opera houses as well as stadiums should be partly publically financed because they create civic pride and are signs of a healthy civilization.

[cwsiggy]

David - You can Paypal me $50 and I promise you I will never go to an Opera the rest of my life. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

what makes life worth living (especially for people w/ crappy lives) is mostly instinctual IMHO. People who kill themselves overcome this instinct w/ cognative thought.

Does this constitute your third necrophilia post?

[David Sklansky]

"You can't disagree with him, because he never has a point. Classic Socratic teaching method, refined by incorporating the Paris school of thought. Also known as 'hit n run'."



That's often true. Are you saying that's bad? (What's the Paris school of thought?)

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't disagree with him, because he never has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are you responding to his posts?

-Zeno

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
I am willing to assume that the people who say that the stuff about what makes life worth living are exaggerating

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, your argument just fell apart. Absent the extreme claim that no meaning/art/dignity equals no value, i.e. that meaning is a necessary condition of value, your quoted statements are simply saying that life is more valuable with m/a/d. In order to disprove those claims, you would have to prove that m/a/d are valueless.

Scott

[David Sklansky]

What are you talking about? I say they are so some value. They say they are a lot more value.

[PLOlover]

It could be that things like the opera and all that crap are for the upper classes so they don't turn into draculas and start eating the peasants for sport.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
It could be that things like the opera and all that crap are for the upper classes so they don't turn into draculas and start eating the peasants for sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if that's what really happened with the Vlad. Famine in the land? Hey, no problem. Just throw a party.

PairTheBoard