Preflop debate

[Gabe]

A. 100-200 So. Cal. live game. A okay player limps UTG. It is folded to Hero who limps on button with JTo. One of the blinds plays okay.

B. 20-40 good So. Cal. game. Looser players are in early and mid positions. CO and/or Button is relatively tight. SB is bad. BB is very good. Hero has KJo UTG and raises.

In both instances, Hero plays very well and is quite possibly the best player in the game.

[doodle2]

in the first instance, i cant see how limping on the button is superior to raising. Raising allow the button to take control of the hand, force the blinds out, and isolate the limper. If you cant make the raise/dont want to make the raise i think that the hand should probably hit the muck.

doodle

[CardSharpCook]

agreed. We're saying that we believe that the UTG player has a mid-PP and was hoping to start a trend. Raising here gives us an AKQ to bluff on the flop. We no longer need to simply hit. Also, raising folds out Q4 and K5 in the blinds. This is good.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I voted that the play in A. was better than the play in B. and that A. is acceptable and B. is probably a mistake.

The isolation play of raising a single limper from late postion or the button should be used often but it shouldn't be used every time you chose to play. JTo with postion is a little too good to throw away, and just a little on the weak side to pull the isolation raise (and the strength of the isolation play is negated when the limper and one of the blinds plays OK). The other advantage of sometimes limping behind a limper is that it makes your raises more credible when you chose to take that line.

The default play for KJo UTG should be easy fold. That said, sometimes, when your image is perfect (e.g., tight and you've been showing nothing but winners or strong hands in the showdown), the blinds don't defend much, and there are tight, predictable and/or clueless players behind you, it's worth a raise. But this situation is worse than average for KJo since, in this case, everything appears to be the reverse of the ideal.

~ Rick

[Michael Davis]

Awesome post, Rick.

-Michael

[mike l.]

hand A was me and hand B was gabe.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
hand A was me and hand B was gabe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like this one was argued at Pink's.

[bernie]

A: If the blinds are loose, I lean on just limping. If they are tight, I'd raise this. Even getting one of them out is a bonus. Lately, I've been raising this quite a bit with only 1 limper to me.

B: I love KJo. In this type of game, I hate that raise. Here's who's behind you:
[ QUOTE ]
Looser players are in early and mid positions

[/ QUOTE ]

and you don't have position on them. With them very possibly colccalling you, it can entice the tighties behind you to coldcall also. How do you like your KJo out of position with 2-4 players behind you? I don't really like it. If you're already getting action on your raises, both in general and from EP, chuck this hand to the muck from this spot. The conditions have to be just right to do this. Even then, sparingly.

b

[jgorham]

Why do we want to isolate a good player with a hand which (probably) has solid showdown value? I am not trying to be contradictory, its just that my usual line is to limp in such a position.

[oreogod]

KJo hand is worse than JTo hand (JTo can actually go either way imo..limp or raise)

[JaysonWeberFCP]

Raised KJo UTG? A better than B. B is a mistake. A is acceptable. Guess i agree w/ most people on this one.

[andyfox]

Standard and de rigueur.

[Clarkmeister]

A better than B, B is close enough to 0 EV that the rake may well be the difference.

[NYplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
B is close enough to 0 EV that the rake may well be the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, in a rake free game B would still be a pretty bad mistake.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
B is close enough to 0 EV that the rake may well be the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, in a rake free game B would still be a pretty bad mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wouldn't. First, Cali is 9-handed, second, while I haven't asked about KJo, I know many good players with extensive databases and they ALL make a tidy profit with KQo UTG, so KJo is at worst a small mistake, and calling it a "pretty bad mistake" at a table full of fish like the OP outlines is simply beind close-minded because there's no way it's a "pretty bad mistake".

[NYplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I know many good players with extensive databases and they ALL make a tidy profit with KQo UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm one of those players with an extensive database and believe it or not, KJo is a much worse hand than KQo. This might surprise you but AK is much better than AQ also.

when i say bad mistake i don't mean -1bb/hand or anything, just that it is a loser and that it's significant. playing hands like this reduce ev, balancing and all.

[Clarkmeister]

K, now filter KJo for 6 off the button in 2-4 and lower online games, because that's what a Commerce 20-40 plays like. I'm pretty sure it's real close either way.

[Gabe]

\I was having dinner with Hero from Hand B and the BB from Hand B. Hero from hand B, told me he was sweating Hero A, when Hand A occurred. Hero B told us about Hand A, and was surprised that BB from Hand B and I did not disapprove of Hero A's play in Hand A.

Later, I was sweating Hero from Hand B and BB from Hand B, when Hand B actually occurred. Discreetly, I told Hero B that I thought his play, in Hand B, was worse than Hero A's play in Hand A. Hero B then began to disagree boisterously. He said that the conditions in the Game B made it a good play. Hero B was so loud that BB from Hand B told us to go somewhere else. I left.

I went home and decided to post about the hands. Since Hero B is very good at describing game conditions and an expert at coloring them in his favor, I conferred with him before posting, to make sure the descriptions met with his approval. Hero A was not consulted.

[Rick Nebiolo]

As a self defense measure I tried to work through all the trick wording but now I'm lost. mike l. said you are the hero in hand B. Were you talking to yourself?

Also, is lmd involved?

~ Rick

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero B then began to disagree boisterously. He said that the conditions in the Game B made it a good play. Hero B was so loud that BB from Hand B told us to go somewhere else. I left.

I went home and decided to post about the hands. Since Hero B is very good at describing game conditions and an expert at coloring them in his favor, I conferred with him before posting, to make sure the descriptions met with his approval.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
hand A was me and hand B was gabe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought for sure you were B, an excitable stand up type of guy.

[mike l.]

but there's no game online even close to as good as the 20-40 this KJo hand was in, in terms of looseness and passiveness and terrible play.

[mike l.]

lmd was the hero in both hands.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
lmd was the hero in both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are a ball-busting lunatic

[mike l.]

i thought the hand was poorly played. i hope have it all correct caused i sweated it. i will not reveal who it was. it was a long time ago and most of you dont know him. it wasnt me.

anyway the hand made no sense to me. the guy who limped utg plays okay. his hand range is something like 99-55, AT, some Axs, a lot of broadway hands, some other hands like 98s maybe, im not sure if he was tilting or something, probably not too likely though. he also might be limp-reraising with the standard l-rr hands sometimes. so i just dont see what value JTo has there against that range of hands despite his position. i thin folding is the best play, with raising and then calling pretty far behind. one of the blinds if i recall right plays okay too and the other plays bad. so that's a bit of a mess too. plus the pot is gonna be small. just seems like a typical reverse implied odds/domination mess waiting to happen, even if hero plays great postflop.

[mike l.]

KJo was obviously me. i think the hand was fine to play in that game. in hpfap it says that conditions would have to be perfect to make a hand like that playable utg. guess what? they were. if you think i fire that up in just every game i play in than come by 'round late autumn, ill have a bridge up for auction.

anyway all clarkmeister's posts hit the nail on the head particularly the one where he says most LA 20-40 plays like online 2-4. actually most 2-4 games online are notably tighter and tougher. how else do you think a guy who fires up KJo utg has been able to make a living for so long? gabe likes to believe the games he plays in are more reasonable and tough than they really are, yet he doesnt wonder if that's so how come he makes $200 an hour playing in them. lmd is just on crack and will agree with anything gabe says. i told them both across the table at dinner that if clark hates the KJo too i will quit playing it in that spot for life. actually no wait. i played the KJ after dinner. i told them that if he likes the JTo i will admit i was wrong. so which is it clarkmeister?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
the guy who limped utg plays okay. his hand range is something like 99-55, AT, some Axs, a lot of broadway hands, some other hands like 98s maybe, im not sure if he was tilting or something, probably not too likely though. he also might be limp-reraising with the standard l-rr hands sometimes. so i just dont see what value JTo has there against that range of hands despite his position. i thin folding is the best play, with raising and then calling pretty far behind. one of the blinds if i recall right plays okay too and the other plays bad. so that's a bit of a mess too. plus the pot is gonna be small. just seems like a typical reverse implied odds/domination mess waiting to happen, even if hero plays great postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I originally thought you wouldn't like the play because the button didn't raise!

Assuming the hand range you stated above, I don't see where the button is dominated that often. He is going to take down a lot of the blind and limpers whiffs along with flopping a non-dominated pair.

~ Rick

[mike l.]

"Assuming the hand range you stated above, I don't see where the button is dominated that often."

with the exception of T9s, unless his hand range utg is wider, which i dont rememeber it being (although hero has played with the guy much more than me), every hand that has a J or a T that utg can have has hero dominated. and yes this is the sort to limp w/ KTo here. i even remember playing a hand against him where he had KTo in ep. add into that AA and KK limp-reraise moves as well as pocket pairs, Axs and a couple other hands and there's nothing JTo is really crushing. plus factor in the blinds who could wake up with something? why on earth would you play JTo in this spot?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"Assuming the hand range you stated above, I don't see where the button is dominated that often."

with the exception of T9s, unless his hand range utg is wider, which i dont rememeber it being (although hero has played with the guy much more than me), every hand that has a J or a T that utg can have has hero dominated. and yes this is the sort to limp w/ KTo here. i even remember playing a hand against him where he had KTo in ep. add into that AA and KK limp-reraise moves as well as pocket pairs, Axs and a couple other hands and there's nothing JTo is really crushing. plus factor in the blinds who could wake up with something? why on earth would you play JTo in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have a different definition of domination.

For example, AK dominates AQ or KQ but doesn't dominate JT (although it obviously is a better hand).

Another example: AA doesn't really dominate 33 in a multi-way pot, since a good flop (set) for 33 will torture AA but AA will rarely get much out of the 33 when 33 doesn't flop a set.

Most of UTG's limping hands don't contain a jack or ten. When they do, they only dominate JT (per my understanding of domination) by a little bit on average (T9s J9s are limping hands that the JT dominates, and many of the hands that UTG could have that contain a jack or ten AND dominate JT generally come in for a raise)

I'd sometimes play the JT on the button because position somewhat overcomes the liklihood (although not extreme liklihood) that you have the second best hand. Your average equity also should be a little greater than the blind(s).

~ Rick

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
"Assuming the hand range you stated above, I don't see where the button is dominated that often."

with the exception of T9s, unless his hand range utg is wider, which i dont rememeber it being (although hero has played with the guy much more than me), every hand that has a J or a T that utg can have has hero dominated. and yes this is the sort to limp w/ KTo here. i even remember playing a hand against him where he had KTo in ep. add into that AA and KK limp-reraise moves as well as pocket pairs, Axs and a couple other hands and there's nothing JTo is really crushing. plus factor in the blinds who could wake up with something? why on earth would you play JTo in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the EV difference between these 2 situations might be pretty close. I still prefer the JTo.

You use the 'blinds may wake up with something' line. Well, what if you raise KJo and someone of the 8 people left behind you wake up with something also? You would hate to see a 3 bet behind you with this hand or a coldcall from one of the tighties.

b

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
KJo was obviously me. i think the hand was fine to play in that game. in hpfap it says that conditions would have to be perfect to make a hand like that playable utg. guess what? they were. if you think i fire that up in just every game i play in than come by 'round late autumn, ill have a bridge up for auction.

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo is a lot worse than KQo first in UTG. Clarkmeister mentioned friends who keep stats and he mentioned results for KQo UTG (or in EP). My guess is these friends do a lot worse when they chose to open raise early with KJo.

My point is that one pip difference makes a lot of difference with big cards (and don't with medium to little cards e.g., 87 plays about the same as 76).

[ QUOTE ]
anyway all clarkmeister's posts hit the nail on the head particularly the one where he says most LA 20-40 plays like online 2-4. actually most 2-4 games online are notably tighter and tougher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Online 2/4 is tighter than LA 20/40, but not really tougher.

[ QUOTE ]
how else do you think a guy who fires up KJo utg has been able to make a living for so long?

[/ QUOTE ]

By making up for his loses with KJo with gains elsewhere. He (I assume you are talking about Clarkmeister) has to have a small sample for this play.

[ QUOTE ]
gabe likes to believe the games he plays in are more reasonable and tough than they really are, yet he doesnt wonder if that's so how come he makes $200 an hour playing in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody makes $200 an hour in 20/40 year after year.

[ QUOTE ]
lmd is just on crack and will agree with anything gabe says. i told them both across the table at dinner that if clark hates the KJo too i will quit playing it in that spot for life. actually no wait. i played the KJ after dinner. i told them that if he likes the JTo i will admit i was wrong. so which is it clarkmeister?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see lmd and clarkmeister weigh in further on this one.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard and de rigueur.

[/ QUOTE ]

I now think the above words should be banned on this forum /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[NYplayer]

ok, i dont' have experience with 2-4 and lower so you may be correct.

[mike l.]

"I think we have a different definition of domination."

no we dont.

"For example, AK dominates AQ or KQ but doesn't dominate JT (although it obviously is a better hand)."

duh i never ever said it did.

"Another example: AA doesn't really dominate 33 in a multi-way pot, since a good flop (set) for 33 will torture AA but AA will rarely get much out of the 33 when 33 doesn't flop a set."

i never ever said it did or wouldve said anything to make you have any reason to state this.

"Most of UTG's limping hands don't contain a jack or ten."

i never ever said they do. i said that when he does have a J or T in his hand it is almost always one that has JT dominated.

"many of the hands that UTG could have that contain a jack or ten AND dominate JT generally come in for a raise)"

im not sure, but i think this player might limp with AJ and AT rather than raise it. ditto KT and KJ, QT and QJ.

"I'd sometimes play the JT on the button"

im pretty sure that neither you nor lmd nor gabe would limp w/ JTo on the button after one limper. from what ive seen i think lmd would raise it sometimes and you would fold it 100% of the time. gabe would almost always fold it as well. if this thread has changed all of your minds and youll all be calling with it than awesome, the games just got a little juicier.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
but there's no game online even close to as good as the 20-40 this KJo hand was in, in terms of looseness and passiveness and terrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's certainly not a game, on-line, with as much multi-way action.

[SA125]

I voted fold for both, with A being better than B. I've posted hands where I've over limped on the button with JTo, but the hand sucks and can cost you more BB's than it makes for you.

[andyfox]

Are you using the 2+2 editor?

[Rick Nebiolo]

OK, we agree on definition of domination, but I still think JT is rarely dominated in the traditional sense after this type of player limps UTG.

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure that neither you nor lmd nor gabe would limp w/ JTo on the button after one limper. from what ive seen i think lmd would raise it sometimes and you would fold it 100% of the time. gabe would almost always fold it as well. if this thread has changed all of your minds and youll all be calling with it than awesome, the games just got a little juicier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd prefer to play a weak hand on the button if the UTG limper was weak in the sense that he is easily readable and not too tricky. But I want to see flops on the button with a modicum of high card strength and one limper. With more high card strength I'm raising of course.

Games are always juicy if I'm in it, for obvious reasons.

~ Rick