The Good, The Bad....The Ugly? (8/26) [Archive]

View Full Version : The Good, The Bad....The Ugly? (8/26)

Harv72b

08-27-2005, 12:38 AM

Tough to find any good candidates this time as pretty much all my hands were utterly standard. Now, if I was gonna do a bad beat post.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

For those who didn't see the first one of these, I'm posting two hands in an effort to doublecheck myself in my hand analysis (and of course to improve my game). Both were played today; one I think I played well, the other I think I played poorly. I'd love to hear your thoughts on either or both of them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 1

Reads: UTG is a buddy with 44/5/1.2 numbers over a little more than 250 hands. I had never seen him LRR before, but his play is generally straightforward & unimaginative. No read on BB. This is still my first orbit at the table, so I don't really have a table image yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (20.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB
Main Pot: 22.25 BB, between UTG and Hero.

__________________________________________________ ________

Hand 2

Reads: UTG, MP1, and SB are all looking like buddy list material. Over small sample sizes of about 30 hands each, UTG is running at a 58/17/1 clip, while MP1 is LAGtastic with numbers of 91/44/1.2. MP1 & UTG have been trading pots back & forth with some spectacular raisefests (think 2+2 table). SB is just as loose but much more passive, at 51/7/0.3. I've shown down a couple very strong hands since joining the table, and mostly stayed out of the way until this one.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets...

gol4pro

08-27-2005, 12:45 AM

Looks good.

I may not raise the turn in hand 1. He's coming out awful aggressive on an awful raggedy board when you've represented an awful lot of strength. Smells of set.

Hand 2 looks perfect.

QTip

08-27-2005, 12:46 AM

I like hand 2. Hand 1 I think is a good example of waiting until the turn to protect your hand. There's no protecting your hand on that flop...."forego the flop raise" because UTG is betting the turn again a high percentage of the time.

jason_t

08-27-2005, 12:49 AM

Given your decsription of UTG, I would just call/call/call in hand one or if that makes you feel like a pussy, fold to the turn 3-bet. Hand two is golden.

gaming_mouse

08-27-2005, 12:50 AM

Hand 1 -- either call down after he bets the turn, or fold to his turn 3 bet. your call down after his turn 3 bet was very bad IMO.

Hand 2 -- good, but only if you fold to a raise.

QTip

08-27-2005, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- either call down after he bets the turn, or fold to his turn 3 bet. your call down after his turn 3 bet was very bad IMO.

Hand 2 -- good, but only if you fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I'm folding those Kings. I think calling the flop, raising the turn, calling down if he 3 bets is the best way to play this hand. I've seen plenty of laggish players play this way with AA-TT and AKs and AKo. Way too much showdown value here to muck this hand IMO.

jason_t

08-27-2005, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- either call down after he bets the turn, or fold to his turn 3 bet. your call down after his turn 3 bet was very bad IMO.

Hand 2 -- good, but only if you fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I'm folding those Kings. I think calling the flop, raising the turn, calling down if he 3 bets is the best way to play this hand. I've seen plenty of laggish players play this way with AA-TT and AKs and AKo. Way too much showdown value here to muck this hand IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAG? The guy has a PFR of 5%.

QTip

08-27-2005, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- either call down after he bets the turn, or fold to his turn 3 bet. your call down after his turn 3 bet was very bad IMO.

Hand 2 -- good, but only if you fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I'm folding those Kings. I think calling the flop, raising the turn, calling down if he 3 bets is the best way to play this hand. I've seen plenty of laggish players play this way with AA-TT and AKs and AKo. Way too much showdown value here to muck this hand IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAG? The guy has a PFR of 5%.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's loose (44) and aggressive (1.4 with his high vpip). As for his limp/reraise, I'm certainly not going to put him directly on AA. I can easily see him playing JJ or QQ and KK this way. That's 12 combos I beat and 1 I chop with (totally disregarding the overcard hands with which people obstinately remove their brains and play this way or just tilt in general). I lose to 3 combos of TT and 6 combos of AA. I'm not going anywhere with this hand in this big pot against a player that's that active with 44% of his hands.

Jake (The Snake)

08-27-2005, 01:12 AM

Love hand 2.

I don't know what kind of straightforward and unimaginative player limp reraises. Maybe your read is off? Does he go on tilt?

Anyway, there is no chance in hell I'm folding KK at any point in this hand. Once he bets the turn after the flop cap it's looking like AA or a set a little too much to raise again I think.

I think c/c c/c is way way too passive.

damaniac

08-27-2005, 01:14 AM

Yet he is straightforward, unimaginative, and his PFR is 5%. I don't expect to see JJ here that often (or even QQ) from a player of this description. I wouldn't fold, but I think Harv overplayed it given the description. And given the board, I'm not terribly concerned about protection on the flop, I'm going for value.

QTip

08-27-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yet he is straightforward, unimaginative, and his PFR is 5%. I don't expect to see JJ here that often (or even QQ) from a player of this description. I wouldn't fold, but I think Harv overplayed it given the description. And given the board, I'm not terribly concerned about protection on the flop, I'm going for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stupid lrr play is getting ever increasingly popular. I'm seeing it with mid pairs with some frequency...not too mention the possibility of tilt in general here.

The board certainly is not draw heavy on the flop, but I never care much about that, when I only have 1 pair and there are several opponents, I'm always thinking about protection if I have a chance...and I do in this hand. It's on the turn after not bloating the pot on the flop. Bottom pair can call profitably here the whole hand the way hero played it.

damaniac

08-27-2005, 01:28 AM

I don't know that putting in 4 bets on the flop (with a high likelihood of paying more on the turn, given the pot size) is a profitable way to play bottom pair.

QTip

08-27-2005, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that putting in 4 bets on the flop (with a high likelihood of paying more on the turn, given the pot size) is a profitable way to play bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's imagine that the BB is holding 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I can easily see this happening. He can play this hand profitably all the way to this river 7. If you had kept the pot small on the flop and used the aggressor to make it 2 bbs on the turn, you can put the bb in a lose/lose.

If I had that hand in the BB and got myself to call 2 more PF after my 1st call, I would have beat hero's KK here because I would have been at that river.

Harv72b

08-27-2005, 02:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 -- good, but only if you fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If SB check/raises I'll fold in a heartbeat & never think twice about it. But if MP1 check/raises I probably have to call.

Harv72b

08-27-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what kind of straightforward and unimaginative player limp reraises. Maybe your read is off? Does he go on tilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

The LRR was from out of left field--I've never seen him do anything like that, although when he's check/raised in the past he had the goods so I suppose it'd fall under the same category. I haven't noticed him tilt, at least not in an aggressive sense...tough to tell if he ever started calling down out frustration, because he does that anyway. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

chief444

08-27-2005, 01:11 PM

Hand 1 I think I just call down after the flop and he leads the turn. He's pretty passive preflop which to me indicates AA is more likely. If he were more aggressive preflop I would like your play...especially with BB still in there.

Hand 2 looks fine and very standard.

TemetNosce

08-27-2005, 01:23 PM

Hand 1: Call flop, call turn, call river. LRR with AA has become popular. Also I have been seeing this with pocket pairs and AK quite a bit lately. If calling flop is too passive for you, raise flop, then just call down the rest of the way if 3-bet on the flop.

Hand 2: Perfect.

Harv72b

08-27-2005, 01:35 PM

Hey, thanks again guys. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I did indeed feel like I overplayed my kings pretty badly in Hand 1, given the opponent & the obvious fact that Party is rigged. /images/graemlins/wink.gif With the third player still in the pot I'd probably go ahead & cap the flop anyway, but when UTG leads the turn again I probably should've just gone into calldown mode. A call/call/call line just seems a little too weak to me with a multiway pot & a pretty darn good hand. UTG did indeed have AA, and MHING.

SB called my river bet with JJ in Hand 2, and MP1 folded. MHIG.

08-27-2005, 01:58 PM

Hand 1 looks like pretty standard play to me. Someone mentioned not raising the turn and that it 'smelled like a set.' I don't know about you, but a majority of the time when someone LRRs me from early position, the person has AA. It's just something I've noticed. I don't think your friend would have a set here, because I don't know of too many players who LRR with low and medium PPs. Anyway, I like raising the turn here just to see where you're at, in case he was LRR with AK or a hand from JJ-AA. I would also call the bet on the river, knowing most of the time I'm gonna be shown AA, but sometimes I'll pick off some fool with A8o... heh.

As for hand 2, I don't like the 3-bet with KQo. 30 hands is just not enough to have a strong enough read to 3-bet with. Also, a raise from UTG + 1 often times is a good indicator for strength, just because the bettor is raising into so many people. I would probably have folded that hand to 2 cold from that position and watched what happened, but since you didn't, let's go from there. I agree with the raise on the flop, and by the looks of what MP1 does, he probably has QQ or JJ and didn't want to get rid of it, maybe he has AK and is afraid of AA... you did 3-bet preflop after all. The small blind is on the heart draw, for sure, I can't see someone like that calling 2.5 cold with a hand that would give him a straight draw on the flop. when it comes to the river, you have to bet here, just because it's a value bet and if you get check-raised, then the guy got lucky holding like A7 of hearts or something... Just my opinion.

AP