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View Full Version : $55 - uneasy ITM spot with AT


Isura
08-26-2005, 11:49 PM
The big blind (other mid stack) is moderately tight I guess, has been pretty passive. We've both just made the money by not playing too many hands (table full of donks). Big stack is loose, and pretty lucky to still be around. I hate raising 3bb here, but I'm not super desperate to push. Limp and see a flop here, or push? Raise anyone?

***** Hand History for Game 2604079582 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:15194064 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Friday, August 26, 23:44:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 14037 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 7: cvaldance ( $7645 )
Seat 10: snzzllman ( $1035 )
Seat 5: testbatsmen1 ( $1320 )
Trny:15194064 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to testbatsmen1 [ Ad Th ]
testbatsmen1 ?

WillMagic
08-26-2005, 11:58 PM
Yeah...it's not a fantastic situation, but AT is too strong to fold here...I'm raising to 250-275 (because that's what I always raise to) and probably calling an all-in from either player. With a laggy big stack...AT is going to fare well against his reraising range of hands...and if we aren't going to raise here, what do we raise? Top 5%? I don't think so.

Will

bluefeet
08-27-2005, 12:00 AM
yeah, but if you 3x into a loosie...you WILL be getting desperate on a whiff and a lead from him (don't see how pushing over top, or following a checked/whiffed flop is an option, as you're not pushing PF presumably). i don't see a much better option than just pushing this now.

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 12:00 AM
The Office. Great show.

Easy push here.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 12:15 AM
Um...pushing kinda sucks here...you are really only getting called by hands that decimate you. You'd do a lot better raising to 3x and calling a reraise all-in - at least then your opponents could have A9-A5 and any pair, and your hand wouldn't have such awful equity against their range.

Will

Isura
08-27-2005, 12:23 AM
Anyone like a limp here?

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 12:28 AM
Maybe. But giving the BB a chance to fold is worth a good amount here.

I still like raising to 275 and calling an all-in from either player.

Will

45suited
08-27-2005, 12:35 AM
The only thing is, I can't see standard raising unless you are willing to call a push from LAG bigstack in the SB.

Otherwise, you're just donating chips to the bigstack.

What's your plan if you raise to 300 and bigstack pushes? Do you expect him to push any two to a standard raise?

valenzuela
08-27-2005, 12:54 AM
one of the worse arguments ever on the history of poker...only better hands will call..soooooooooo??????!!!!!!! the times u win 150 and u win a showdown overcompensate the times u lose a showdwon.

microbet
08-27-2005, 12:58 AM
I just push. I don't want to limp and let both of them in cheap or free look. A raise to 250+ is pretty commiting. If SB is so loose I probably can't fold to him. Maybe, if BB is real tight I can raise to 200 and fold if he pushes. Still I like pushing better because I want things like 55 to fold.

Which brings me to...blue, your thinking sound a little strange, as if hero's action changes SB's cards. If SB has 55 I'd much rather push and have him fold than raise and have him reraise.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 01:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
one of the worse arguments ever on the history of poker...only better hands will call..soooooooooo??????!!!!!!! the times u win 150 and u win a showdown overcompensate the times u lose a showdwon.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I did the ICM on this, and pushing is better than folding by less than 0.5% - so little that they didn't even make a recommendation. And secondly, even if it is the case that you win 150 by stealing the blinds enough to compensate for the lost showdowns...that doesn't make jamming better than raising to 3x and calling an all-in raise, WHICH WAS THE ARGUMENT OF MY ORIGINAL POST. IDIOT.

Will

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:01 AM
Except that you're wrong and ICM isn't God.

You'll get called by worse hands here. This is beyond an easy push.

bluefeet
08-27-2005, 01:03 AM
yeah, some pretty muddled rambling there. i don't think your point MB was my intent.

i propose push.

he mentioned "not being desperate" (or something to that effect) regarding the not pushing arguement. i was trying to make the point that with a "standard" raise and a whiff, he was essentially looking at laying the hand down (minus a few hundred chips). with the blinds raking through after this one, he's basically pushing with less next orbit. i personally do not like raising. i could fold easier than raising. but i push /images/graemlins/wink.gif

valenzuela
08-27-2005, 01:05 AM
LOL..i was going to say the exact same thing..which 55 as an example as well.

45suited
08-27-2005, 01:05 AM
I agree with Microbet and others. My default play is to just push here. Take away any inkling that the bigstack has to mess with me.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 01:10 AM
I got a little defensive in the last post because the other guy totally misrepresented my argument. Anyway.

So first off - your contention that you will be called by worse hands. Realize that you are pushing in 13 big blinds. Do you really expect to get called by A9 here? Or KQ?

And if they won't...then what worse hands are calling your push?

Will

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:13 AM
You're pushing 13 BBs against the big stack. 10 against the BB. If the BB had the same stack a 3x BB raise would suffice, and then fold to a reraise.

Raising 3x the BB and folding to a push from the big stack is playing too weak as any good big stack would raise with any two cards there. You need to exert maximum pressure here.

Anything other than a push here just seems ludicrous to me. And the times that a dominated A or KQ, KJ, and KT call here more than make up the times that you get called by those 5 big pairs and 3 dominating aces.

PS As a general rule, don't answer posts coming from someone using the word "u"

Isura
08-27-2005, 01:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i personally do not like raising. i could fold easier than raising. but i push

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think that folding is much worse than limping.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 01:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Raising 3x the BB and folding to a push from the big stack is playing too weak as any good big stack would raise with any two cards there. You need to exert maximum pressure here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop right here. I advocate raising to 3x and CALLING a reraise all-in. I agree that raising to 3x just to fold to the big stack's all-in is garbage. My point is that we do BETTER when the big stack plays a range of hands that includes hands we beat (i.e. A9-A5, KQ-K9.)


[ QUOTE ]

Anything other than a push here just seems ludicrous to me. And the times that a dominated A or KQ, KJ, and KT call here more than make up the times that you get called by those 5 big pairs and 3 dominating aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I disagree with you that KQ-KT will call an 13BB open-push, but then we are just disagreeing on assumptions and there's nothing really to be done about that.

Will

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:26 AM
I think raising and then calling an all-in is terrible. When someone reraises you, you are just beat too much of the time to make this call profitable. Pushing erases guessing games.

Depending on how you've been playing decideds whether or not these dominating hands will call you. I play an aggressive game so I see dubious calls like this all the time (including calls from Q and J high hands).

The times you will win this pot uncontested though is so high that folding here cannot be an option and you will just be blinded down waiting for a hand.

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:32 AM
Limping is worse than cutting off your feet like in the movie Saw which is a horrible movie but not as horrible as limping.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 01:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising and then calling an all-in is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you seem to think any play that you disagree with is terrible, when this play could not possibly be terrible, only slightly wrong or slightly right. There is no way this play is as clear-cut as you seem to imply.

[ QUOTE ]
When someone reraises you, you are just beat too much of the time to make this call profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember this "someone" is a loose big stack who has been extremely aggressive. And without putting him on a specific range of hands your analysis of the profitability of this line is meaningless.

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing erases guessing games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seriously get to take a mulligan for this statement if you want. I'm not looking.

[ QUOTE ]

Depending on how you've been playing decideds whether or not these dominating hands will call you. I play an aggressive game so I see dubious calls like this all the time (including calls from Q and J high hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

But remember our starting situation! We've been playing very tight and the big stack has just been dominating the table. For chrissakes, we're 3-handed and it's only 50-100 blinds! Under these circumstances, the range of hands that the BB will reraise with is FAR wider than the range of hands the BB will call our open-push. We'd rather face the wider range of hands because that range includes a number of hands we beat.

[ QUOTE ]

The times you will win this pot uncontested though is so high that folding here cannot be an option and you will just be blinded down waiting for a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Will

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:41 AM
You can't disagree with my entire post then agree with the conclusion I've come to because of it. Choose a side, then we'll tango.

WillMagic
08-27-2005, 01:47 AM
Try this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764127667/qid=1125121483/sr=8-8/ref=pd_bbs_8/102-8718474-8128952?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Will

Isura
08-27-2005, 01:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Limping is worse than cutting off your feet like in the movie Saw which is a horrible movie but not as horrible as limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. What's wrong with playing a fairly strong hand for 1/13 of our stack IN POSITION in a 3-handed poker game? I'm not saying limping is the best, but it's certainly better than folding.

Chaostracize
08-27-2005, 01:51 AM
"Um...pushing kinda sucks here" Post 1.

Quote:
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The times you will win this pot uncontested though is so high that folding here cannot be an option and you will just be blinded down waiting for a hand.


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I agree. -Post 2

I'm not getting into a flame war. I've made my argument.