Ugh, the mom and her hatred towards casinos -- please help

[yellowjack]

The background info: My mom's dad has losts millions in gambling. He was a very smart construction contractor but gambled like a madman on horses, roulette, craps, you name it. He didn't go broke but spent almost every weekend gambling. My mom went with him a few times and has a very damaging memory of placing a bet for roulette, only to have another person call back the bet as his own before the wheel was spun. It's haunted her for life, and her perception of casinos and people in casinos. She also has memories being up big playing other casino house games and then losing it all in a single bet.

The situation: When I started playing poker almost a year ago it was alright because it was small stakes. I started going to the casinos when I was of age but never told her. However the bubble kind of burst a few days ago when I won the first tournament I entered for a lot of money. The money is irrelevant, but I wanted to tell her so that -

1) she could stop worrying about me & money
2) i can take my family out to dinner
3) to come clean with her

I told my dad and he's ok with it because he gambled when he was my age and is rid of it. I think I impressed him with my maturity towards "responsibly gambling" (i.e. limits, not playing spontaenously, playing for entertainment?)

I only told her I've been there 3 times, which is a lie. I've been about 10 times this year. Just today we discussed how she didn't want me to go to the casinos regularly for entertainment. I guess my dad's advice was bad to put it lightly.

I don't know how to paraphrase everything that my mom has said about me playing but the list below is what I recall. We've discussed this very openly and both my mom and I are good at not getting directly angry at each other, but trying to explain our rationale in as calm a way as possible:

<ul type="square"> the people i'm playing with are addicted the fact that i used to restrict my play to online tables and now am going to the casino is a sign of addiction me not agreeing to never go to the casino again is a sign of me being addicted young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment it is scary for her that im not intimidated in a casino, nor by the people i play with casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there there is a high risk of me getting robbed of my money at the table, in the casino somewhere, in the parking lot, or anywhere on the drive home [/list]

In case it is not obvious, she doesn't care for any sort of money &amp; time management I have planned. She doesn't want me there, period. I see why though, it's not about that. It's me being physically in the casino, or in her eyes, hell's gate.

I have tried to think logically about each of her points. The one that strikes me is me being addicted if I cannot agree to never go to the casino again. This is true (that I don't want to agree to this), so I suppose it is true that I'm already addicted. My rationale (to myself, earlier) was that the tables are easier live and for higher stakes, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.

As for a few of her other points, I believe she is being paranoid with robbery and that people are not that unpleasant to be "terrified of". I suppose I should have better things to do but I feel I am good at hold'em. I like doing what I'm good at it.

She's obviously correct in casinos being detrimental. So what do I do here? What are your thoughts on my perspective and my mom's? Is there anything I could do for us to go onto common grounds or will there be no peace? If you have a similar issue with your rents, please tell me. PM me if you're uncomfortable and I'll gladly take any constructive advice/feedback.

[Rasputin]

Talk to a Gamblers Anonymous counselor and, asuming they concur that you are not addicted, invite your mother to talk to them too.

[Autocratic]

Her logic is not solid - you aren't addicted for not wanting to give something up that you enjoy. I'm not addicted to orange juice, but if someone who had a bad experience with it wanted me to stop drinking it, I would refuse. Bad example, but you get my point.

I agree with talking to a Gamblers Anonymous rep. Explain the situation and your desire to play, and ask for a smart course of action.

[yellowjack]

Good idea with the counsellor. Assuming I checkout with the Gamblers Anonymous counsellor as not being addicted, she still thinks the casino is a terrible place. I suppose then the reality of the matter is that nothing good can come out of any further discussion. Casino = bad place.

[VarlosZ]

Still living at home? Then only go to the casino rarely, if at all. She's not going to be convinced, hiding it is unpleasant (and perhaps impossible), and everyone will get along better if you do as she asks -- this is ultimately worth more than the occasional good time at the casino.

If you're not living at home, then go as often as you like, and lie about it. She doesn't have a right to know about every single thing you do, and feeding her irrational fears won't do anyone any good.

[GMan42]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with talking to a Gamblers Anonymous rep. Explain the situation and your desire to play, and ask for a smart course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...not sure how understanding a GA rep would be about +EV games, etc...I wouldn't be surprised if he hears your side and says "of course you're addicted, house has edge in everything, don't you understand you'll give back all your winnings and then some, you need help, yada yada" and then you're really screwed with your Mom's perception of this.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Still living at home? Then only go to the casino rarely, if at all. She's not going to be convinced, hiding it is unpleasant (and perhaps impossible), and everyone will get along better if you do as she asks -- this is ultimately worth more than the occasional good time at the casino.

If you're not living at home, then go as often as you like, and lie about it. She doesn't have a right to know about every single thing you do, and feeding her irrational fears won't do anyone any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer.

It sounds like the OP's dad is cool, so don't worry about him. He's not going to change his mom though, so the best thing he can do is just not tell her. Its only going to make things worse to try and change her mind.

[ QUOTE ]
# young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment
# casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there

[/ QUOTE ]
Two excellent points. I'd like to see you refute them.

[yellowjack]

I'm 19 and still going to a university nearby, so moving out isn't an option for the next two years. My older sister is still living at home, and she's 4 years older so I think I'll be living here for at least 6 years. My family has always been big on saving up and not renting, only buying.

On these two points:
- young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment
- casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there

You're right in that they are hard for me to refute. For entertainment at night this is part of the "routine" of things I do. Other things have included going out drinking, billiards, etc. etc. Just normal stuff, and then this. Shouldn't I have other things to do than this for "entertainment"? Yeah, but I like doing this too. I could just be in denial about the whole thing, but it's so damn hard to be subjective about it. I don't even know whether or not I'm addicted to poker here, but if I am does this mean I'm addicted to gambling?

On the casinos being detrimental, she is saying a lot with that. I can't refute it for sure; it's true that they're no good for society. But should I need to? She is saying that people shouldn't work at casinos, factories that produce cigarettes, and liquor stores because there are products/services that are sold/used that are detrimental to society. I'm not comparing my playing poker to working, but both involve being at the location regularly.

Edit: I just remembered another point she had. "See where gamblers are a few years down the road and look at how unhealthy their life(style) is". I can certaintl refer to you guys, right?

[xniNja]

Without reading any other replies, the obvious answer is to go play all the time and not tell her. Kids these days, gotta ask 2+2 about everything.

[pretender2k]

[ QUOTE ]
young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment

[/ QUOTE ]

I have better things to do for entertainment also but since I have kids to support and my job is good but not great some of my poker income allows my wife and I to do things we would not otherwise be able to afford. This is why I deal for 6 to 10 hours and come home and play another 4 to 6 at least 5 days a week. I think of it as a second job. A second job that I really enjoy but a job none the less. I live in the midwest and their are a lot of farmers that work in the casino so they can have some extra money especially in the bad years. I look at my poker playing as the same thing at this time. I hope someday I can support my wife I on poker playing alone but at this time it is a second income.

Maybe this perspective can help refute that point, but I think what it will really take is time. Preconceived notions that are backed up by experience take time to change.

[creedofhubris]

Why don't you just drop the casino trips and play solely on the internet? Seems like that would reduce a lot of the friction.

You gain a lot more EV from getting more hands and multitabling online than from the looseness of any one casino table anyway.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
# young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment
# casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there

[/ QUOTE ]
Two excellent points. I'd like to see you refute them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Casinos aren't really any more detrimental to society than bars or danceclubs or restaurants. (note: many casinos have those 3 and more) Or other 'entertainment' venues.

However, Point 1 is dead on.

I wouldn't go to GA. You're rolling the dice there that you won't get a militant GA member that thinks everything even remotely related to a casino is gambling.

She's your mom. She's going to be worried no matter what. Comes with the territory. I'd wonder what's wrong with her if she didn't worry. You want to really make an impression, since you're a 'pro' and all, move out and support yourself with it. There's no arguing success. The more she sees you succeed, 'on your own', the better. Even then she'll still worry. She's your mom. That's what mom's do.

b

Yeah, casinos are detrimental to society. Right. All those jobs created are just HORRIBLE thing to have. Why, those blackjack dealers would be better off on welfare! Not to mention that casinos fuel those evil hotel and restaurant industries. How dare they charge people for food and a place to sleep?

I'm glad my mother isn't a douchebag like yours.

[Bluffoon]

Try to get her to agree to disagree with you on this issue.

[sandsmarc]

The general principle is: if you have to lie about what you are doing, you shouldn't do it.

You are at a point in your life where you have the energy and temperament to do what you want, but not the resources. You are living off your parents, you are benefitting from their largesse, so you must consider their wishes before commencing with a course of action.

If you're mom doesn't want you in the casino you either go and lie, or refrain and stay honest. Honesty works best and feels best so I would avoid live play in casinos for now.

There will be plenty of time for that when you are no longer a mooch.

Ultimately, you have to take a stand with your mom and tell her that you are a full grown adult and will make your own decisions, including the decision to gamble. You also have to internalize the principle that you do NOT need your parents approval to pursue a personal goal that makes sense to you. A functioning adult owes no explanations and needs no approvals.

However, you are not there yet; you are a dependent. That dependency creates expectations and you DO have to live up to them. The expectations are a cost of the dependency. You are also getting a tremendous benefit in return. Do you realize how many tens of thousands per year it costs to keep you around each year? You have to give action to get action.

Final decision: Do not go the casino right now if it creates a problem with your mom. If you are strong enough to be a winning poker player, you're strong enough to deny yourself a small amount of personal pleasure so that you can live your life honestly.

I would also explain to your mom that you have made this decision and tell her why. She might be easier to convince later if she sees that you a strong and principled person.

Personal example: When I was 21 I decided to become a professional horseplayer. Guess who staked me. That's right: Mom. I convinced her that I was not a gambler and that I had a realistic chance to make a lot of money. I did it for an entire summer and ultimately lost the $1,000 she gave me. I realized that playing horses is a losing proposition for all but the most talented and dedicated hanndicappers. The rake (17%) was just too high for me to overcome. At the end of that summer I stopped playing horses and moved on to other things. My mom is gone now, but I'll never forget the gamble she took by staking me.

That would not have happened if I was a liar who snuck off to the track and she found out about it by accident.

Do it honestly or don't do it at all.

[gildwulf]

Why don't you just play online and forget about B&amp;M for a few years until you move out? Online is way more profitable anyways, and if you want entertainment go out with friends somewhere. You're 19 years old...two years of your life not at a casino isn't such a bad thing.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Casinos aren't really any more detrimental to society than bars or danceclubs or restaurants. (note: many casinos have those 3 and more) Or other 'entertainment' venues.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they are. C'mon.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Casinos aren't really any more detrimental to society than bars or danceclubs or restaurants. (note: many casinos have those 3 and more) Or other 'entertainment' venues.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they are. C'mon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot the hookers.

But on 2nd thought, they're also entertainment. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

[yellowjack]

I read all the replies. The second page seems to be all about sticking to online play, which seems like the right course of action. It's not that I'm missing out on "casion action", it's more me not being able to play live, because I like playing live. I know multitabling NLHE tables is supposed to be more profitable, but with the action at the live tables it's estimated one could make $20/hr. I can't see myself making $20/hr multitabling the $25 NLHE on party. sandsmarc your points are really good, and I'll remember them. I can't do a thing as long I still live with her.

All said, she said she wouldn't mind me playing in a few tournaments a year so maybe I'll go back eventually.

And I'm not considering going to GA anymore as it seems like alot of trouble.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square"> the people i'm playing with are addicted the fact that i used to restrict my play to online tables and now am going to the casino is a sign of addiction me not agreeing to never go to the casino again is a sign of me being addicted young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment it is scary for her that im not intimidated in a casino, nor by the people i play with casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there there is a high risk of me getting robbed of my money at the table, in the casino somewhere, in the parking lot, or anywhere on the drive home [/list]


[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, these are all true, except for the last point, casinos and casino parking lots are highly monitored and quite safe.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see myself making $20/hr multitabling the $25 NLHE on party.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can hit $20/hr at $25 tables by 4-tabling if you are a hardcore bonus whore.

Otherwise, move up in stakes when your bankroll can afford it, and you can see if you're good enough to win $20/hr without the crutch of the bonuses.

How about starting a home game, if you want to get some live play in?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square"> the people i'm playing with are addicted the fact that i used to restrict my play to online tables and now am going to the casino is a sign of addiction me not agreeing to never go to the casino again is a sign of me being addicted young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment it is scary for her that im not intimidated in a casino, nor by the people i play with casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there there is a high risk of me getting robbed of my money at the table, in the casino somewhere, in the parking lot, or anywhere on the drive home [/list]


[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, these are all true, except for the last point, casinos and casino parking lots are highly monitored and quite safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they aren't all true.

To your last point, many cardrooms aren't that well monitored or patrolled. The old hideaway was a fine example of a place to be careful of late a night. Another one that comes to mind is one called 'midway' in a seedier area around here. Someone could easily roll someone outside the Emerald Queen before any security even thought to come help.

Be aware of the surroundings outside upon entering a casino/cardroom. It's one of the first things I look at when entering a new room.

You think one should be intimidated by a casino or the people he plays against? That lack of this means he's addicted? yeah, right.

b

[yellowjack]

I don't that many poker players in the area, but it's a good idea thanks.

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square"> the people i'm playing with are addicted the fact that i used to restrict my play to online tables and now am going to the casino is a sign of addiction me not agreeing to never go to the casino again is a sign of me being addicted young people like myself (im 19) have better things to do for entertainment it is scary for her that im not intimidated in a casino, nor by the people i play with casinos are detrimental for society, so i shouldnt be there there is a high risk of me getting robbed of my money at the table, in the casino somewhere, in the parking lot, or anywhere on the drive home [/list]


[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, these are all true, except for the last point, casinos and casino parking lots are highly monitored and quite safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they aren't all true.

To your last point, many cardrooms aren't that well monitored or patrolled. The old hideaway was a fine example of a place to be careful of late a night. Another one that comes to mind is one called 'midway' in a seedier area around here. Someone could easily roll someone outside the Emerald Queen before any security even thought to come help.

Be aware of the surroundings outside upon entering a casino/cardroom. It's one of the first things I look at when entering a new room.

You think one should be intimidated by a casino or the people he plays against? That lack of this means he's addicted? yeah, right.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't even mention the casino I play in. It's a very new casino with cameras everywhere, even in the parking lot.

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one surprised by the "I should be intimidated by the people I play with". It just doesn't make sense if you've actually played in a cardroom.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a very new casino with cameras everywhere, even in the parking lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they have cameras in the parking lot, doesn't mean it's totally safe to walk in.

What it gaurantees is that if you do get rolled, the guy watching the camera will get quite a show and security may reach you to help you pick up your teeth after the guy is long gone. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just something to be aware of.

b

[Vlorg]

[ QUOTE ]
placing a bet for roulette, only to have another person call back the bet as his own before the wheel was spun

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to hijack but I was very curious as to how this happens? Do some casinos not use roulette chips?!?

Vlorg

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
placing a bet for roulette, only to have another person call back the bet as his own before the wheel was spun

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to hijack but I was very curious as to how this happens? Do some casinos not use roulette chips?!?

Vlorg

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that these days there are inside bets, where you each person is designated a color of roulette chips worth a certain amount (oftentimes $1/chip). Inside bets are on a certain number. There are the outside bets though, which you use casino chips to bet with. Betting on black/red, 1-12, 13-24, and 24-36 is an outside bet. I'm guessing she made an outside bet.

[yellowjack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a very new casino with cameras everywhere, even in the parking lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they have cameras in the parking lot, doesn't mean it's totally safe to walk in.

What it gaurantees is that if you do get rolled, the guy watching the camera will get quite a show and security may reach you to help you pick up your teeth after the guy is long gone. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just something to be aware of.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. Now I don't feel like such a fool for getting some fifty year old security guard to escort me to the car that night /images/graemlins/smile.gif .

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still living at home? Then only go to the casino rarely, if at all. She's not going to be convinced, hiding it is unpleasant (and perhaps impossible), and everyone will get along better if you do as she asks -- this is ultimately worth more than the occasional good time at the casino.

If you're not living at home, then go as often as you like, and lie about it. She doesn't have a right to know about every single thing you do, and feeding her irrational fears won't do anyone any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer.

It sounds like the OP's dad is cool, so don't worry about him. He's not going to change his mom though, so the best thing he can do is just not tell her. Its only going to make things worse to try and change her mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur. Trying to change her mind about this is next to hopeless, especially given the experience she went through with her dad. Just go &amp; lie about it, or wait until you move out of the house. Just going to have to humor her.