AK post flop

What move here?

30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15187846) - Fri Aug 26 20:03:44 EDT 2005
Table Table 39806 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 3: uclabruinz (730)
Seat 4: Enzo614 (800)
Seat 5: Braddm20 (995)
Seat 6: Count_deMonE (790)
Seat 7: rosen_rosen (600)
Seat 9: cbakes (2985)
Seat 10: ponzi1 (1100)
Braddm20 posts small blind (15)
Count_deMonE posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to uclabruinz [ As, Kd ]
rosen_rosen calls (30)
cbakes calls (30)
ponzi1 calls (30)
uclabruinz raises (125) to 125
Enzo614 raises (300) to 300
Braddm20 folds.
Count_deMonE folds.
rosen_rosen folds.
cbakes folds.
ponzi1 folds.
uclabruinz calls (175)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 2h, 9c ]
uclabruinz.....

Post deleted by citanul

[lastchance]

Well, I think your biggest mistake was calling nearly half your stack preflop.

Getting here, I think you need to shove this, but preflop action should have been either push/fold. If you call, you have to know that the rest of your chips are going in on any flop.

You think I should have laid this down pre-flop with those pot odds?

[cha59]

I like pushing after the reraise preflop instead of calling.

I dont like laying it down because youre only in really bad shape against AA and KK. You'll get hands to fold that you dont want to play against with an unfavorable flop and you get to see the turn and river if you get called.

The problem with the call is because of the situations you get in when the flop misses you (which happens most of the time).

[Lori]

[ QUOTE ]
You think I should have laid this down pre-flop with those pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read two threads today that you participated in and you mentioned pot odds in both of them.
I believe you may be thinking about SNGs the wrong way.

If you stick your money in to hit a flush draw, you will lose two tournaments out of three, whatever the pot odds.
Doubling your stack does not double your EV except for in a few specific situations.

Can I recommend you play around with the ICM (See FAQ for details) and see the effect of various things happening (Start with someone doubling through first hand, and then invent some of your own.)

Edited: Blatantly stupid error by me removed.

Lori

[valenzuela]

What were u thinking when u called the preflop bet?? not a sarcastic question..what were u thinking? You need to have a plan other than hoping for an ace or a king.

[ QUOTE ]
What were u thinking when u called the preflop bet?? not a sarcastic question..what were u thinking? You need to have a plan other than hoping for an ace or a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was that I would win a huge pot if A or K shows up on the flop, and if it doesn't I still have 400+ chips with which to work, which isn't fun but is till enough to get something done. Folding would have left me with 600 instead of 430, but I felt that given the pot odds I had to take a look at the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think I should have laid this down pre-flop with those pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read two threads today that you participated in and you mentioned pot odds in both of them.
I believe you may be thinking about SNGs the wrong way.

If you stick your money in to hit a flush draw, you will lose two tournaments out of three, whatever the pot odds.
Doubling your stack does not double your EV except for in a few specific situations.

Can I recommend you play around with the ICM (See FAQ for details) and see the effect of various things happening (Start with someone doubling through first hand, and then invent some of your own.)

Edited: Blatantly stupid error by me removed.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Lori, I really appreciate the suggestion and do plan to study ICM more in the near future. Are you suggesting that pot odds are irrelevant at all times in SNGs? In my book they of course continue to play an important role, although only in certain situations and always taking into account the more important areas of context.

Lori, how would you have played this hand pre-flop?

[45suited]

1) Reads (remember those?) would be nice. Is this guy doing this with anything other than AA or KK?

2) Pre-flop has to be push or fold. Calling is simply not an option in my mind.

IMO, your initial raise wasn't large enough anyway, after 3 limpers in level two. I would have either:

a) raised to t200 straight away, or

b) open pushed pre-flop. Sounds crazy initially, but you'd be adding 18% to your stack at minimal risk.

(Now when I say "minimal" risk, I mean it's not really any more risky than your line in that you're losing your shirt to KK or AA anyway. So you might bust, but the times you're not against AA or KK, you have given yourself significant FE and you've guaranteed that you will see all 5 cards.) Surely, open pushing pre-flop is better than weakly raising and then being lost on the flop when you whiff.

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you just know you're beat and you have to lay it down. Poker is about everything else but the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh. this gimmick account ssssssssssucks.

Will

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that I would win a huge pot if A or K shows up on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no you won't.

Your opponent's range is in the neighborhood of AK, AA-99 and maybe AQ. If you flop an A or K you are only going to get played with when you are beat.

Will

[Chaostracize]

Agree agree agree

Will, you are so right. Once again I am not thinking enough about villain's range and instead focusing on my own cards and situation. And 45suited is also right in that I don't try hard enough (if at all) to get reads.

I have really been struggling with AK lately in early rounds. I feel like I'm often putting signicant chips at risk at a time when it just isn't worth it.

I'm still feeling a little lost on this and similar hands, but thanks to everyone for helping me try to think it through.

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]

I have really been struggling with AK lately in early rounds. I feel like I'm often putting signicant chips at risk at a time when it just isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Methinks that is because you are too reluctant to push preflop with it. AK is not a hand that takes flops well. If you are playing AK in such a way that you are routinely seeing flops you almost certainly need to push it more often and you might need to fold it more often.

Will

[lorinda]

It was just a suggestion based on two posts. Your latter comment shows I was probably incorrect.

Personally I think you should push or fold preflop depending on what you think your opponent has. I'll take a coinflip here as the pot is probably large enough (Without ICMing it) and I'll probably push. A call doesn't do much other than invite your opponent to hit free cards on the occasions when he is behind.
You'll hit the flop 1/3rd of the time, and lose 1/2 your stack the rest of the time (Unless you're going to pull some kind of funky stop go if you really think he has a small pocket pair.... a read I'd find very hard to make here)
As a very rough rule of thumb, I don't like to call off more of my stack than the percentage of the time I will take down the pot..... the obvious exception being when I choose to go all in.


Lori

[ QUOTE ]
It was just a suggestion based on two posts. Your latter comment shows I was probably incorrect.

Personally I think you should push or fold preflop depending on what you think your opponent has. I'll take a coinflip here as the pot is probably large enough (Without ICMing it) and I'll probably push. A call doesn't do much other than invite your opponent to hit free cards on the occasions when he is behind.
You'll hit the flop 1/3rd of the time, and lose 1/2 your stack the rest of the time (Unless you're going to pull some kind of funky stop go if you really think he has a small pocket pair.... a read I'd find very hard to make here)
As a very rough rule of thumb, I don't like to call off more of my stack than the percentage of the time I will take down the pot..... the obvious exception being when I choose to go all in.


Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Lori, for the great advice. I think I'm starting to "get it" here and am now in favor of pushing instead of calling, particularly at an $11 where villain's range is pretty wide.