15K hands. I cant beat 3/6

Hi Guys.

Ok - a little background.
Been playing for just over a year, and have never really struggled too much.
Managed to win about 5BBs/100 at 100NL over 40000 and won a nice 10K seat, but kinda drifted onto limit at the start of the year.

Started at it more seriously in March and ignored every bankroll rule under the sun to have a crack at 15/30 on PP.
Won a quick 12K but lost 6K of it quick. My Pokertracker icon was a lame 'Tight Passive Overplayer' as I sat back and punished players over aggressiveness (my agg was 0.7!!!)

Feeling down, I thought I would start at the bottom, change my style, and hit 2/4. Managed to take just over 2BB/100 at that level over 12000 hands.

Moved up to 3/6 and found this place.

Bought SSHE and I am half way through it but after 14600 hands, Im getting nowhere.

Here's my stats:-

3-6 Stats (http://www.geocities.com/guisboroughcc/3-6.JPG)

I know I need to be more aggressive after the flop...but how?
One problem I have is raising with flushes or OESD. Surely I want to keep customers till I hit? Is there a concept I am missing (other than trying to buy a free card acting late)?

Any other tips/advice?

Thanks very much.

First thing I notice is table selection. Poker Tracker says you could have attempted to steal the blinds 908 time out of 14.5k hands. Assuming full tables, too few players are in preflop. This tells me that you are playing at super tight tables.
In the same light, you are only attempting to steal only 20% of the time and you are winning 73%. You should be attempting to steal more on these tight tables.

[sy_or_bust]

Way too passive preflop and postflop.

Thanks tbg...thats some good advice.

How does PT determine whether it is a valid steal opportunity or not?

Table selection is literally something I have just looked at today for the first time. Ive never bothered at all with it!!

I know /images/graemlins/frown.gif

But I dont spot the opportunities to be aggressive.

After an AF of 0.7, its taking some changing!!

If you are playing at party, down load PokerAce Heads Up Display. Read in the forum how to data mine. Open 4 tables and let poker tracker/PokerAce do its thing for 30 min. Shen you return, PokerAce will overlay on the tables your opponents preflop%, preflop raise% and Aggression Factor as well as the table as a whole.

Look for tables with a high preflop% and low Preflop raise% and it will increase your bb/100.

I use pokerace. Its great.

I'll try what you suggested. Thanks bud.

[ReadyEddie]

I dont want to sound mean...

But i think the harsh reality here is that you've been lucky.

You have limited limit experience. You were running hot to win anything at 15/30. You're 2/4 shot of 12000 hands is an almost insignificant sample size. You were not beating that game. And you're just reading SSHE. Im gonna be blunt and say it, but you do not have the skills to beat 3/6, thats why you're getting nowhere, and you should consider yourself lucky that you're not doing worse. In fact I dont know if you can beat 2/4. You're too tight pre flop, too passive post flop, you dont steal blinds enough ect. My advice, read some more, read this forum, post hands, and go down to a game you might be able to beat, maybe 1/2.


sorry

[Paxosmotic]

The low aggression looks like you're carrying over a NL tendency to rock peddle, seeing cheap flops and turns to improve, hoping to make a big score. Limit doesn't work like that, you have to put the chips in the pot.

[four eight suited]

Your preflop decisions are too passive. You are calling too much and not raising nearly enough. Open raise all the time, stop open limping. This preflop aggression becomes key on the flop and later in the hand because you get control of the betting.

Dont apologise!!

I have no problems with what you are saying at all.
If I didnt want to improve, I wouldnt be on here.

I dont entirely agree with you because ive honestly only had one losing month in 16 and I play 20 hours a week. I won consistenly at 5/10 on Pokerchamps for a few months, and am certain I am not a losing player. Just think Im not much of a winning one now I have started 4 tabling.

I truly believe you dont have to play anywhere near optimum strategy to take care of the donks, but I dont want to win .5BB or 1BB/100. I want to win 3.

My aggression at 2/4 WAS higher (9.5) but I find it harder to do it at 3/6 as I get played back at more often. I only open limp with medium 55 66 77, maybe TJs QJs KQ and all of these are in EP.

I must stress again, I am very willing to learn and appreciate your honesty. I take a lot of what you guys say on board. Youve been there - done it. Compared to you, I know nothing.

Thanks!

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont apologise!!

I have no problems with what you are saying at all.
If I didnt want to improve, I wouldnt be on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the perfect attitude to have. I wish more new posters responded to constructive criticism like this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I only open limp with medium 55 66 77, maybe TJs QJs KQ and all of these are in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on table conditions, but limping 55-77 up front is usually okay. JTs, QJs, and KQ are not usually okay (KQo perhaps, but I'd bring it in for a raise if I was playing it; KQs is a definite openraise from EP). This is one of the things that's most difficult to adjust to when you make the move up to 3/6 & beyond...you are going to see a lot more aggression from your opponents, which makes it far more likely that the pot will be raised behind you if you openlimp. This in turn makes it unprofitable to limp things like small suited broadway up front, unless the table is very loose and/or passive.

Anyway, looking at the stats you posted...

This is going to sound like a contradiction to what I just said, but I think you're playing a little too tight of optimal. On 3/6 you can easily get away with a VPIP in the 18-20 range, primarily by limping behind with speculative hands in LP and aggressively trying to steal the blinds when it's folded to you in MP3 & beyond. In fact, I'd say that just upping your blind steal attempts is likely to push your overall VPIP into the 18+ range, which is good.

You need to defend against blind steals a little more often, particularly from the BB. You're not doing badly in this category, but you just have to understand that an openraise from MP3 on does not necessarily mean a strong hand, particularly when the raise comes from the button. You can be very liberal in what hands you defend with, particularly where suited & connecting cards are concerned--often times, just making a pair will be enough to win the pot when it's HU.

Someone else brought up the point of table selection based on the number of times you've had the opportunity to steal the blinds, and I agree with that analysis. On 2/4 you can usually just join a table at random & figure to win money with solid, tight play. This is not always true on 3/6, as there are a lot of very good players who multitable 3/6 full time...they will not pay off very often when you have the best hand, and they will punish you badly when you don't. Finding the bad players on 3/6 & then following them mercilessly is a huge boost for your win rate.

And then there's the stealing--you aren't doing it nearly enough. When it's folded to you in the CO, you should be openraising liberally...if the blinds are tight and/or don't defend often enough, you can even raise with any two cards. But typically, your range should be something along the lines of any pocket pair, any ace, any two cards ten or higher, any suited king K7+, some other suited combos like Q9s, J9s, T9s, etc. Stealing the blinds is a major component of winning at 3/6 (and higher limits), because you can't depend on several opponents calling you down with middle pair or worse when you flop TPTK with AK. Since you aren't going to make the big bucks that way, you have to find another way to push your edge, and picking up $4 at a pop by stealing the blinds is an excellent way to do it.

The good news is that your Went To SD & Won at SD numbers look dead on, which means that you understand when to stay in the hand & when to let it go postflop. That's a big leg up on most of your competition, and a very important skill for succeeding at middle stakes, when you get there.

You must raise more often preflop. Again, I think your lack of blind stealing is part of the reason your PFR is lower than what most consider ideal, but I think you're also passing up a lot of other raising opportunities. Some that come to mind which many players miss:

Medium pocket pairs & KJs first in from MP.
Big suited aces in the BB after several limpers.
KQs from anywhere.
3-betting questionable openraises with AQ.
Speculative hands like JTs or 99 in LP after many limpers.
3-betting to isolate an openraiser with medium pockets.

As far as limp/reraising goes...you've done it 3 times, which is more than enough for a 100k hand sample. So just forget you know about it now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Your postflop aggression is probably the biggest thing that worries me out of all your numbers. You need to be more aggressive! Raise with any pair when an aggressive opponent on your right bets a draw-heavy flop. Raise to buy outs when you flop two overcards + a draw. Don't wait for the "safe" turn card when you flop a set on a dangerous flop. Don't fear monsters under the bed. And fold more of your weak draws when you don't have pot odds to continue (I don't think this is a major problem for you, but it can bring down your overall aggression).

As I've said, on 3/6 you aren't going to have a bunch of dunks calling down with any two on every hand, so when you do hit something good, you have to take full advantage of it. If 2/4 & below is the land of the value bet, 3/6 & above is the land of the value raise.

Looking at how long this reply is it might seem like you have more holes in your game than you actually do, which isn't the case. I really do think it comes down to just being more aggressive--both preflop & in blind steal situations, and postflop with mediocre hands in appropriate conditions. SSH, when properly applied, will work wonders in these categories. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mack848]

This is a great post Harv.

I expect that plenty of us, as well as the OP, will find it useful - myself included. Thanks.

[ReadyEddie]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont entirely agree with you because ive honestly only had one losing month in 16 and I play 20 hours a week. I won consistenly at 5/10 on Pokerchamps for a few months, and am certain I am not a losing player. Just think Im not much of a winning one now I have started 4 tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

well you also gotta look at it in number of hands, if you're 1 tableing then i play 6 times more hands than you in 1 month. so, 6 months for you is equal to one of my months. In the end dont take you're samples too seriously, because people on this board have had 20k hands good/bad/break even runs.

btw great attitude hope to see talk to you more on the boards...post some hands!

Harv....I am staggered by that post.

That you went to all that trouble amazes me. Thanks so much!!! Some great points and what you are saying makes perfect sense - every bit of it.

I'll implement what youve suggested and see where Im at in another 10-20K (although Im not really bothered if I win, happier just to learn to play better)

Thanks to everyone else who also replied.