Can I fold at the 11s?

[puzzlemoney]

No HH available, so this is from my notes...

Stars $10+1; Level 2, Blinds 15/30

8 Players Left

UTG (1315 in chips) raises 120 to 150
UTG+1 (2610) calls 150
1 fold
CO+1 (shortstacked with 650) raises 500 to 650 and is all-in
Hero (in cutoff with 1720 and Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif...



CO+1 seems loose but hasn't been playing total crap. He seems to overvalue his hands postflop, which is why he's short. No reads beyond the first few hands of this SnG, though.

UTG is what I'm afraid of. He's quite tight and I have every expectation that he's going to come at MP2 hard.

I suspect I'm in trouble with two still to act, but can I fold queens?

[Hornacek]

i'd fold queens... you're probably looking at at least one AK, if not some KK or AA to boot. let it go, and let them knock each other out.

QQ is a great hand, but its not hard to fold preflop either.

[schwza]

folding QQ here would be pretty bad, imo. i'd probably fold JJ but i'm not even sure.

[puzzlemoney]

[ QUOTE ]
folding QQ here would be pretty bad, imo. i'd probably fold JJ but i'm not even sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured this would be the prevailing sentiment. And assuming I'm up against something solid like an AK from UTG and a smaller pair from the short stack, my pot odds are very good and I've got great equity, even when UTG calls, so I'm pretty sure it should be a solid call.

I guess my question is--how small does my edge need to be this early in the tournament before I should consider giving it up in favor of looking for the bigger edge later? It seems almost certainly correct to call with my queens, but I probably would have folded jacks quickly rather than risk what would be a coin flip which would cripple me if I lost it (which I ended up doing with the queens).

Are SnGs too short and fast to consider NOT pushing small edges? Should I really be pushing more marginal situations to the max and firing up the next table if they don't work out?

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I really be pushing more marginal situations to the max and firing up the next table if they don't work out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a marginal situation and I would push it everytime here. You have the idea about firing another up if it doesn't work out though. You'll see 99-JJ as often as you will AK and that puts you way ahead in this spot in the long run. FWIW though, this is the clear cutoff for me, I definitely fold JJ, but I guess I'm a little tighter with JJ than some here.

[jt1]

Very interesting hand. In the heat of battle, I'd probably fold this. UTG probably has Ace good kicker. If he has AK he might go all-in when it gets back to him. UTG+1 probably has a pp. CO also probably has a pp. You dominate the PP's and are a coin flip against AK if someone has it. Then again you might have an AK and an AQ or AJ in there. It must be totaly table dependent and without a table read then whatever you do is probably EV neutruel. Very interesting hand!

[raptor517]

im not folding here in a 10. period. the end. end all. push push push win against AJ and 88. holla

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
im not folding here in a 10. period. the end. end all. push push push win against AJ and 88. holla


[/ QUOTE ]

There are 3 players in this hand. 2 of them are UTG and one is all-in. It's unlikely that UTG has you beat but UTG2 and the all-in player could have KK or AA. I guess you're right. QQ should be pushed here. It's the number of players, their positions, and the all-in that scares me, but worried about AA or KK does seem kind of silly, especially since you'll still have chips left against the all-in and may be able to win a side pot. I do have an uneasy feeling about UTG2, though. Wish we had a read.

[puzzlemoney]

Yup. I convinced myself that there was a decent chance that UTG had AA or KK, and folded the best hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

UTG had AK (and went all-in); shorty had 77.

I was pleased, though, that despite playing this hand wrong, I actually applied a level of thinking to my play that I would usually throw out the window when I see a pair of queens. I figured that UTG was tight enough to have a top-notch hand, and that the shortstack had a pair smaller than mine, and I was right. So I'm at least becoming able to put people on ranges that are reasonable.

I was also pleased that, after I folded incorrectly, the short stack sucked out and made a set on the flop, which would have beaten me, had I stayed in...

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
I was also pleased that, after I folded incorrectly, the short stack sucked out and made a set on the flop, which would have beaten me, had I stayed in...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong Answer!

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I was also pleased that, after I folded incorrectly, the short stack sucked out and made a set on the flop, which would have beaten me, had I stayed in...


[/ QUOTE ]

good consolation prize

I was actually more concerned with UTG+2 than UTG. I didn't think UTG would bet KK or AA like that but UTG+2 had to call a very big bet.

[puzzlemoney]

UTG+1 wasn't anything to worry about, as I recall. He luckboxed into his stack and was calling everything. I was pretty sure UTG was gonna try to take the hand and didn't think UTG+1 would stay in for it.

[puzzlemoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was also pleased that, after I folded incorrectly, the short stack sucked out and made a set on the flop, which would have beaten me, had I stayed in...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong Answer!

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw, I know that.

I made the wrong play and I'm not letting myself off the hook. But can't I at least allow the bad beat I didn't take ease the pain a bit? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

By the way--if I do play here, I push, right?

What If I know that one, but not both, of the early callers will overcall if I just call? Do I want a couple of overcards against me, or do I want to isolate the guy who probably has the smaller pair?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 wasn't anything to worry about, as I recall. He luckboxed into his stack and was calling everything. I was pretty sure UTG was gonna try to take the hand and didn't think UTG+1 would stay in for it.


[/ QUOTE ]

IC ---That was important info. His actions were the only ones that didn't register. No UTG will ever rase 5x the bb with AA or KK. You don't have to worry about the short stack all-in because he probably just has a pp, and you have him covered by 3. Good posts! and had you gone all-in you would not have won a side pot b/c UTG would have folded his AK. It's nice to learn and win money at the same time.

jonny

[raptor517]

ok, just so you know.. at the 11s, there are not that many thinking players. the utg+2 guy that cold called the 150 could have anything from 22-AA or like.. KTs-AKs. thats a pretty big range. they are all idiots and clueless about how to play poker, and until they show you otherwise, treat them as such. in a 55+ that cold call scares me a bit, but in a 10, im still autoshoving. the shorter stack could be shoving a big range as well trying to get it heads up with an extra 195 dead in there, or maybe he thinks he can even drag the pot without a showdown. all of these factors make QQ an easy push in my book. holla

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was also pleased that, after I folded incorrectly, the short stack sucked out and made a set on the flop, which would have beaten me, had I stayed in...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong Answer!

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw, I know that.

I made the wrong play and I'm not letting myself off the hook. But can't I at least allow the bad beat I didn't take ease the pain a bit? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

By the way--if I do play here, I push, right?

What If I know that one, but not both, of the early callers will overcall if I just call? Do I want a couple of overcards against me, or do I want to isolate the guy who probably has the smaller pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push, and it isn't because I am choosing who I want against me as much as I am not gonna fold (assuming I just called - the pot is huge now) if a K hits the board and now I have to play a guessing game for the side pot. I don't mind running AK v. QQ v. 77 in this spot, and I *really* don't mind at all if AK folds! If AK did fold here it would be even better for you.