I think I'm ready to move up

[Me and You]

Hey all been playing .25-.50 and I believe I have conquered it however my sample size isn't great.

Here are my stats:
Hands: 6079
VP$IP: 22.45
VP$IP SB: 43.32
Fold SB to Steal: 83.33
Fold BB to Steal: 45.45
Att to steal Blinds: 23.74
Won$WSF: 29.25
BB/100: 3.52
Went to SD: 40.54
Won$at SD: 49.72
Preflop Raise: 8.44

I've read that $.5-$1 isn't that much different and I have the br for it. So should I move up or stick it our a few 1000 more hands at this limit?

Cheers

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey all been playing .25-.50 and I believe I have conquered it however my sample size isn't great.

Here are my stats:
Hands: 6079
VP$IP: 22.45
VP$IP SB: 43.32
Fold SB to Steal: 83.33
Fold BB to Steal: 45.45
Att to steal Blinds: 23.74
Won$WSF: 29.25
BB/100: 3.52
Went to SD: 40.54
Won$at SD: 49.72
Preflop Raise: 8.44

I've read that $.5-$1 isn't that much different and I have the br for it. So should I move up or stick it our a few 1000 more hands at this limit?

Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a HUGE WTSD number, in my experience. Have a hard time getting away from hands, even when you think you're beat?

I don't really remember any big adjustments I made to my play between .25/.50 and .50/1.00. Maybe you'll notice the tables tighten up a bit more, and the loose limp-fests are a bit harder to find.

If you're confident in your play, by all means try it out.

I like what was suggested (probably by Grunch, he suggests so many cool things we are all in danger of becoming Grunch-bots) that when you think you're ready to move up take 50BB of the new level up, and play. If you lose those, go back down and keep playing the lower level for a while more. If not, well, then you've moved up.

KO

WTSD is pretty big. Try not to call the river when you have TPTK so much. That was a huge hole in my game. Anyway, i think that if your thinking about moving up, just get into it slowly. Play 1 table at a time. Good luck.

[Me and You]

THankyou I do believe that I tend to hold onto tptk to much but most of the times the pots are huge so I tend not to fold as I'm not 100% sure I'm beaten.Usually happens when I'm heads up but still abit in multiway pot. Does this mean I should tend to fold more in these situations?

[jrz1972]

You don't have anywhere near enough hands to conclude anything about your stats, especially your winrate.

That said, if you feel like you're beating .25/.50 and you have the roll for .5/1, by all means move up. I've never played .25/.50, but it's hard to imagine that it's that much softer than .5/1. You can always move back down if you need to.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
THankyou I do believe that I tend to hold onto tptk to much but most of the times the pots are huge so I tend not to fold as I'm not 100% sure I'm beaten.Usually happens when I'm heads up but still abit in multiway pot. Does this mean I should tend to fold more in these situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding TPTK for one bet on the river in a huge pot is generally somewhere between terrible and abysmal. There are times when you can do this, but a good general rule is just to go ahead and show your hand down in these situations even if you're almost sure you're beaten.

I will go out on a limb and offer a 100% guarantee that showing down TPTK is NOT the reason why your WSD is unusually high.

[Me and You]

What would be a more suitable number?

What i mean was something like, say you got AK(no club) on the button, everyone folds to you, you raise, called by blinds.

Flop K87 with 2 clubs
blind checks, you bet BB calls
Turn, a club
you bet, BB raises

Stuff like that where the pot is like 4 BB and theres a fairly good chance your hand is no good against your average .5/1 player.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
What would be a more suitable number?

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhere from the high 20's to the mid 30's is typical.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
What i mean was something like, say you got AK(no club) on the button, everyone folds to you, you raise, called by blinds.

Flop K87 with 2 clubs
blind checks, you bet BB calls
Turn, a club
you bet, BB raises

Stuff like that where the pot is like 4 BB and theres a fairly good chance your hand is no good against your average .5/1 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a "huge pot" and you're not talking about folding for one bet on the river.

What i meant was about my post of how TPTK probably isn't good alot of the times and isn't worth it in small pots. I guess i wasn't clear. And i figured if your calling the turn with a hand thats probably beat, You pretty much have to call the river. Otherwise, you should fold the turn. I'm usually a big supporter of not folding to one bet if its been reraised to you, but in this case, i think it has to be done.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
What i meant was about my post of how TPTK probably isn't good alot of the times and isn't worth it in small pots. I guess i wasn't clear. And i figured if your calling the turn with a hand thats probably beat, You pretty much have to call the river. Otherwise, you should fold the turn. I'm usually a big supporter of not folding to one bet if its been reraised to you, but in this case, i think it has to be done.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's closer than you think. You'll see semi-bluffing on the turn when someone picks up a strong draw like a pair with a high-club kicker here.

Yea. I guess is that my mind is currently corrupted with this down swing i'm on, and whenever i call, and the river is another club, it makes me sick that my hand is probably no good, and i just wasted a few bets.

[hemstock]

Your WtSD is very high.
If you are playing at stars .25/.50 and you want to move at party to play .5/1 then do it. The games there are much mich softer than stars.

[ QUOTE ]

That's a HUGE WTSD number, in my experience. Have a hard time getting away from hands, even when you think you're beat?


[/ QUOTE ]
I had the same symptom playing .25/.50. My wtsd was around 40. When I moved to party .50/1 it immediately moved down to a stable 31-32.
I'm not an expert, but it might have something to do with the extremely passive behaviour of the .25/.50 crowd. If you catch a part of the flop, and bet out, you most often get no signal that your hand is bad. So you end up dragging people to the pot, where they show you top two pairs or a straight or whatever. I've seen people checking boats through three streets, several times.
I mean, you can't just open fold middle or top pair, just to lower your wtsd number, can you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif
I've just been in OP's situation, and if he has the roll for it, and is willing to single table a bit in the start, I would go for it.

[MrWookie47]

The other thing people aren't noticing as much is that your VPIP and your PFR don't match very well. I'd expect to see more like 18/8 or 22/12, not 22/8. If you're looking to loosen up from 18/8, it should be because you're seeing more profitable opportunities to raise (and steal), not because you're limping all that much more.

[WSOP Bound]

[ QUOTE ]
What i mean was something like, say you got AK(no club) on the button, everyone folds to you, you raise, called by blinds.

Flop K87 with 2 clubs
blind checks, you bet BB calls
Turn, a club
you bet, BB raises

Stuff like that where the pot is like 4 BB and theres a fairly good chance your hand is no good against your average .5/1 player.

[/ QUOTE ]


Warning: Rant ahead!


I do this !@#$!@ all the time /images/graemlins/blush.gif Have a hand like TPTK and all of a sudden someone decides to wake up when the scariest card in the deck comes on the turn. What do I do? Pay them off of course. I'm working on it, but it's a hard habit to break. You read posts about not seeing monsters under the bed and you want to believe that the rock to your left waking up on that scare card is okay. After all you can't be certain that your beat. So what if it's the first time that you've ever seen him raise in 500 hands, you just can't be certain that he has you beat can you? Sorry, just bitter about a session last night where I had a horrible run of getting sucked out on and paid them off with TPTK every chance I got.

END RANT

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
What i mean was something like, say you got AK(no club) on the button, everyone folds to you, you raise, called by blinds.

Flop K87 with 2 clubs
blind checks, you bet BB calls
Turn, a club
you bet, BB raises

Stuff like that where the pot is like 4 BB and theres a fairly good chance your hand is no good against your average .5/1 player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this is probably a pretty safe laydown.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's a HUGE WTSD number, in my experience. Have a hard time getting away from hands, even when you think you're beat?


[/ QUOTE ]
I had the same symptom playing .25/.50. My wtsd was around 40. When I moved to party .50/1 it immediately moved down to a stable 31-32.
I'm not an expert, but it might have something to do with the extremely passive behaviour of the .25/.50 crowd. If you catch a part of the flop, and bet out, you most often get no signal that your hand is bad. So you end up dragging people to the pot, where they show you top two pairs or a straight or whatever. I've seen people checking boats through three streets, several times.
I mean, you can't just open fold middle or top pair, just to lower your wtsd number, can you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

True, you have to know why you're beat, and it is usually due to a lot of raising. If the play is just so passive you have to see the showdown before you know you're beat, then sure, there's nowhere to fold it.

Maybe it'll change naturally when he moves up like you say.

KO

[Guthrie]

My WTSD is
37.77 at .25/.50 (10,055 hands)
34.57 at .50/1 (13,780 hands)
28.45 at 1/2 (1,299 hands)

I agree that at the lower limits the games are so passive that you end up at far more showdowns simply because the donks don't have sense enough to bet their hands. I've often seen a flopped set of kings turned over after I've been pumping top two pair and being called all the way to showdown.

It's almost impossible to push them off hands--they'll call with any pair into any board--but if you have anything at all, it's worth it to go to showdown far more often than might otherwise seem reasonable.

[Guthrie]

Here are my stats for comparison:

Hands: 6079 - 10055
VP$IP: 22.45 - 22.32
VP$IP SB: 43.32 - 32.84
Fold SB to Steal: 83.33 - 76.67
Fold BB to Steal: 45.45 - 77.14
Att to steal Blinds: 23.74 - 16.31
Won$WSF: 29.25 - 29.50
BB/100: 3.52 - 4.61
Went to SD: 40.54 - 37.77
Won$at SD: 49.72 - 46.45
Preflop Raise: 8.44 - 7.68

I moved to .50/1 and can't really see that much difference in the games. I had a relatively steady climb at .25/.50 up to 10,000 hands, then moved up. I had similar results at .50/1 until about 8,000 hands when I started on a roller coaster. I'd drop 50-90BB in one day, then make it back and them some over the next two days. So I'm staying at .50/1 for far longer than I had planned.