Do Fulltilt pros make more from playing or from site?

[PokerPaul]

Just wondering, but i think it must be getting close to them pulling in more income from their site than from their on the table earnings.

Unless they are just paid sponsors of the site, but somewhere i heard they actually do have ownership of it...

[cwsiggy]

When people ask them in the rooms if they own the site, the main pros are always very careful to say they are "consultants to the software design company" - wink wink. Same with Annie Duke on UB. I imagine this is a legal way around any potential troubles with Johnny Law. I'm sure they get rather fat checks at the end of each fiscal year or at least private shares that have a value they can sell. If not, and I'm wrong then they are "paid consultants to the software design company" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JJ97]

I was speaking to one of the FullTilt Pro's at a bar one night (long story) and he said that he donates all his FTP winnings to charity. Perhaps he is the only one, but he seemed to make it sound like that was the standard op there.

Anyway, I left with the impression that they definitely get paid to promo the site and the money they play with on the site seems meaningless to the top "name" pro's (Ivy, Harmann, Gordon, etc).

Just what I heard talking to one those guys at a bar.

JJ

[Aceshigh7]

I heard they get all their tourney buy-ins of at least $10,000 paid for by full tilt. That's pretty significant when a tourney pro's average buy-ins per year (if they play most major events) is in the $300,000 range.

[Sponger15SB]

My guess is Clonie Gowen makes more from Full Tilt than she does from playing /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KingCon]

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is Clonie Gowen makes more from Full Tilt than she does from playing /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

VNH

[dibbs]

I'm sure it's different from player to player.


As a guess,

Ivey-Not even close.
Gowen- probly FTP.
Lingdren- nah.
Gordon- Probably FTP
Juanda- doubt it.
matusow- Nah
flack- I really have no idea.
Jdags- I doubt it.
Harman- Not even close.


Thing is though that no one really knows how much they make from endorsing the site, in any shape or form whether it be a straight cash deal per year or points of the vig or what.

The money they make from playing 3/6 on the site and talking to freaks is almost certainly not theirs. The recent Ivey/SR matches might be debateable though. Them giving it to him as a sort of publicity stunt sounds right.

To repeat a phrase used numerous times in this thread, "I heard" a while back that if any of the players end up in the green due to their table play on the site it goes to charity or freerolls on the site.

[PokerPaul]

hmmm, somehow i just don't believe the charity angle.

I think that that is what they might say publicly to people for legal reasons, and maybe they do make some donation to charity of some of those proceeds, but it may have more to do with tax sheltering.

If they are indeed just "consultants" to the site, then maybe its different, but if they own the site or part thereof, they gotta be very careful how they manage it and their income from it.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering, but i think it must be getting close to them pulling in more income from their site than from their on the table earnings.

Unless they are just paid sponsors of the site, but somewhere i heard they actually do have ownership of it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be shocked if they were not compensated (or have already been compensated) via ownership in the company. The amount of marketing dollars to compensate a team of pro's like that would be pretty staggering for a start-up site w/o a ton of revenue (compared to the big ompcanies).

[dibbs]

If the charity thing was BS I wouldnt be surprised at all, but as you mentioned the tax writeoff angle might be in their interest at great deal.

Chances are it just goes into the freerolls or back into their pockets for whatever else they need it for.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

Ivey-Not even close.
Gowen- probly FTP.
Lingdren- nah.
Gordon- Probably FTP
Juanda- doubt it.
matusow- Nah
flack- I really have no idea.
Jdags- I doubt it.
Harman- Not even close.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what they make playing poker nor what their compensation and/or equity from FTP is, right?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The amount of marketing dollars to compensate a team of pro's like that would be pretty staggering for a start-up site w/o a ton of revenue (compared to the big ompcanies).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what the endorsement deals cost nor how much FTP makes, right?

[Kyo Souma II]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ivey-Not even close.
Gowen- probly FTP.
Lingdren- nah.
Gordon- Probably FTP
Juanda- doubt it.
matusow- Nah
flack- I really have no idea.
Jdags- I doubt it.
Harman- Not even close.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what they make playing poker nor what their compensation and/or equity from FTP is, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty obvious it's just a guess.. I.e. Clonie could probably make more at a laundromat than she's made in tournaments over the past 2 years.

-kyo

[dibbs]

Yup.

"As a guess,"

Didn't use the term "educated guess" because that'd be quite the exageration to say the least. No one on here (they havent spoke up, at any rate) knows what these guys make from play or their cut from FTP so it's all airball guesses.

[PokerPaul]

no one except FTP knows exactly what they make OK, but lets just say that we all know it is ALOT......the profits these established online sites make is stagering

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The amount of marketing dollars to compensate a team of pro's like that would be pretty staggering for a start-up site w/o a ton of revenue (compared to the big ompcanies).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what the endorsement deals cost nor how much FTP makes, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you decided to spend a few hours looking at this, you could put a reasonable number behind both these assumptions.
Especially now that Party is public, as are their revenue figures.

[Acesover8s]

The profits that a site like fulltilt makes are really not comparable, or even in the same ballpark as party or stars.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The amount of marketing dollars to compensate a team of pro's like that would be pretty staggering for a start-up site w/o a ton of revenue (compared to the big ompcanies).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what the endorsement deals cost nor how much FTP makes, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you decided to spend a few hours looking at this, you could put a reasonable number behind both these assumptions.
Especially now that Party is public, as are their revenue figures.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did that, you would find that marketing money for poker endorsements is small potatoes compared to online gambling revenues.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
no one except FTP knows exactly what they make OK, but lets just say that we all know it is ALOT......the profits these established online sites make is stagering

[/ QUOTE ]

With PokerPulse and the like, you can figure out to a reasonable enough degree how much these sites are making.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The amount of marketing dollars to compensate a team of pro's like that would be pretty staggering for a start-up site w/o a ton of revenue (compared to the big ompcanies).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on knowing neither what the endorsement deals cost nor how much FTP makes, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you decided to spend a few hours looking at this, you could put a reasonable number behind both these assumptions.
Especially now that Party is public, as are their revenue figures.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did that, you would find that marketing money for poker endorsements is small potatoes compared to online gambling revenues.

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends what you consider a small potatoe. Full Tilt isn't nearly as big as you might think, according to pokerpulse. Smaller than Crypto & Ladbrokes, neither of whom spend the kind of money FTP does for endorsements (and probably have less spending in other areas as well). so as a % of revenue, FTP is spending a lot more than comparable companies, which is why an equity stake vs direct cash compensation makes more sense for Ivey/Ferguson/Lederer, etc.

[PokerPaul]

True Fulltilt is nowhere near the size of party or stars, but that doesnt mean that they aren't making HUUUUUge amounts of profits.

Heres a benchmark:

One single 5/10 table running 7 days a week, for a full year brings in $1 million.

And they dont even have to pay dealers, heat, airconditioning, floormen, equipment, comped full menu food, cocktail waitresses, etc etc that BM casinos have cutting into profits.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
True Fulltilt is nowhere near the size of party or stars, but that doesnt mean that they aren't making HUUUUUge amounts of profits.

Heres a benchmark:

One single 5/10 table running 7 days a week, for a full year brings in $1 million.

And they dont even have to pay dealers, heat, airconditioning, floormen, equipment, comped full menu food, cocktail waitresses, etc etc that BM casinos have cutting into profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, but they have to pay affiliates (some as much as 40% of rake), an engineering staff, a marketing staff, an anti-collusion staff, benefits for all these people, office space, etc...

[PokerPaul]

that is peanuts compared to what the BM places have to pay.

as for affiliates...it costs them nothing, since affiliates do the marketing for them and bring new players to the site. Its not a 25% rake cost to them...its a 75% rake gain with no marketing cost.

the email support and technical staff is very small in comparison to the ratio of just how many customers play at the site.

[Deathbear]

I bet they get paid in Full Tilt points. Clonie still hasn't earned her jersey!