Help me settle this dispute with a 2+2er ($215)

[Newt_Buggs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1085)
MP3 (t892)
Hero (t1165)
Button (t230)
SB (t1375)
BB (t855)
UTG (t1965)
UTG+1 (t693)
MP1 (t1740)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t50, MP3 calls t50, Hero calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t250) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t250) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero?

He has almost convinced me of his preference, but I still like mine as well.

I say check. I doubt strongly that anyone has any outs against you, and nobody's represented top pair, so you can't expect many calls here--maybe a ten or the Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Pray a heart doesn't come down on the river and a T may bet, you may get a bluff, someone may make a straight or a set, etc.

[usmhot]

Interesting spot.
Depending on reads
I'd either check and hope something comes on the river to interest the others
OR
I'd lay out a small bet (even just 1BB) to try to fool them that I'm trying to bluff it. If anyone else is drawing to the flush they just might bite.

[johnnybeef]

About the only way you are getting paid is if someone makes a horrible play, puts you on a steal and comes over top. Not betting could give a free card to a set, the pot is a decent size, just take er down.

Beefcake

[Phil Van Sexton]

I'd bet 150. I don't like checking.

[bennies]

I (on lower buyins) will always check this with position. The board only pairs 26% on the river (chance of a boat), so I feel good about giving the free card.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd bet 150. I don't like checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
About the only way you are getting paid is if someone makes a horrible play, puts you on a steal and comes over top. Not betting could give a free card to a set, the pot is a decent size, just take er down.

Beefcake

[/ QUOTE ]

Does a set typically let this check through when the third heart hits the turn? On that same note, does a set let the pot on a two heart flop stay closed?

That said, I'd still bet the turn, but not to keep a set from getting a free card. We most likely won't be stacking someone, but we can pull a few more chips in our direction if we keep the pot small enough for someone to chase with a moderate hand.

[Unarmed]

Bet. You checked last to act on the flop. If there's a semi-intelligent aggro among your four opponents he'll read you for a steal because most will bet their FD on the flop. Plus you get value from Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, etc etc.

[fnord_too]

bets ~T125

If someone is slowplaying a hand, you stack them.
If someone has a weak hand, you might get a little out of them.
If no one has anything, you probably not going to get paid off on the river anyway.

If the stacks were deeper, I like betting the flop against most line ups.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
I say check. Pray a heart does come down on the river and a T may bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixed your post, he would still have the nuts

greg

[Jman28]

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I say check. Pray a heart does come down on the river and a T may bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixed your post, he would still have the nuts

greg

[/ QUOTE ]

His post didn't need fixing, except for the part where he checks.

A heart will scare away almost all hands that may have called/bet if a non-heart fell.

[Hellmouth]

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I say check. Pray a heart does come down on the river and a T may bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixed your post, he would still have the nuts

greg

[/ QUOTE ]

His post didn't need fixing, except for the part where he checks.

A heart will scare away almost all hands that may have called/bet if a non-heart fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but it might also induce a once card flush to make a stupid move. With the nut flush he would be in a very nice position.

By checking it through the likelyhood of someone having anything decent here is very low. Maybe another heart makes someone an expensive second best hand. Plus another heart means no full house (Except for the 2h).

Greg

[Moonsugar]

Bet 1/2 to 1 x the pot.

I don't really think you have a better chance at getting a call on the river than you do on the turn. Bet 150.

OCW

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I (on lower buyins) will always check this with position. The board only pairs 26% on the river (chance of a boat), so I feel good about giving the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

A set is not likely to be playing slowly on this board on the flop. a paired board worries me not.

[durron597]

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I'd bet 150. I don't like checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[Daliman]

You gotta bet SOMETHING, even if it's the insidious "I minibet and induce a bluff-raise since I didn't bet my draw in position on flop flop" bet. Hell, someone else may have the flush too, and I like yers best. If a 4th heart comes off, a made weak flush could fold, but you could also get paid some by someone else, although not much. Many good kings will call a smallish bet here too.

[Wes ManTooth]

Definately bet... how much may some what depend on reads.

[citanul]

isn't the more interesting question a) who the other 2+2er is, and b) which ones of you prefered which line?

citanul

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
isn't the more interesting question a) who the other 2+2er is, and b) which ones of you prefered which line?


[/ QUOTE ]
Well? lets hear it.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
isn't the more interesting question a) who the other 2+2er is, and b) which ones of you prefered which line?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]
a. Curtains
b. Curtains liked betting 150, I liked checking

according to you guys I'm in the wrong /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Seriously though, I'm shocked at how many responses that I'm seeing for betting and some of the reasoning. First, lets establish some things:
-99% of the time no one has a K, its extreemly rare that they checked it twice. If they did check it twice, they're likely folding it unimproved.
-99% of the time no one has a set here, this is even less likely IMO than the K. If they were slow playing a set by checking the flop, they're going to bet out on the turn at least to protect from another heart.
-more than 99% of the time there isn't a weaker flush. Statistically the chance that someone else has a weaker flush is very small. Combine this small chance with the chance that they also checked their vulnerable flush.

the advantages of betting:
-Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif might be out there and decide to draw
-someone might think that you're insane and bluffing 4 other people from position when there's 3 hearts out. (very small IMO)
-An idiot might call with a straight draw, a T, or who knows what

it seems like the following advantages of checking are slightly better:
-someone has a pocket pair or a low pair on the board and improves
-an A or another card comes giving some a pair that they're willing to put money in with
-a chance to bluff (this is small, but still more likely than someone reading your position bet as a steal on the turn IMO)

Now I think that both lines are very close. I doubt that you're getting paid off either way.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
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isn't the more interesting question a) who the other 2+2er is, and b) which ones of you prefered which line?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]
a. Curtains
b. Curtains liked betting 150, I liked checking

according to you guys I'm in the wrong /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Seriously though, I'm shocked at how many responses that I'm seeing for betting and some of the reasoning. First, lets establish some things:
-99% of the time no one has a K, its extreemly rare that they checked it twice. If they did check it twice, they're likely folding it unimproved.
-99% of the time no one has a set here, this is even less likely IMO than the K. If they were slow playing a set by checking the flop, they're going to bet out on the turn at least to protect from another heart.
-more than 99% of the time there isn't a weaker flush. Statistically the chance that someone else has a weaker flush is very small. Combine this small chance with the chance that they also checked their vulnerable flush.

the advantages of betting:
-Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif might be out there and decide to draw
-someone might think that you're insane and bluffing 4 other people from position when there's 3 hearts out. (very small IMO)
-An idiot might call with a straight draw, a T, or who knows what

it seems like the following advantages of checking are slightly better:
-someone has a pocket pair or a low pair on the board and improves
-an A or another card comes giving some a pair that they're willing to put money in with
-a chance to bluff (this is small, but still more likely than someone reading your position bet as a steal on the turn IMO)

Now I think that both lines are very close. I doubt that you're getting paid off either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you tricked me into agreeing with Curtains.

You are dealing with 4 players who limped or checked on level 3....not exactly a group of maniacs. I think someone playing passively and check/calling a K (or worse) is more likely than you do.

By checking, you are really counting on someone improving, but without putting a 4th heart on the board. Even then, you aren't going to stack them anyway. Just value bet it instead, IMO.

[raptor517]

MIN BET!!!! seriuosly.. it might work.. in all honesty i make a tiny little bet here around 100. i dont like checking, cuz thats what suckers do. they slowplay hands and dont make anything off of em. the best way to win chips is to build pots. thats why people that learn the nuances of pot limit ring games do better overall in poker imo. holla

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
MIN BET!!!! seriuosly.. it might work.. in all honesty i make a tiny little bet here around 100. i dont like checking, cuz thats what suckers do. they slowplay hands and dont make anything off of em. the best way to win chips is to build pots. thats why people that learn the nuances of pot limit ring games do better overall in poker imo. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but a smart player would be like, why would he minibet instead of check? He was last to act!

Good thing players on Party arent smart palyers /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[curtains]

Please note that I bet 125 not 150.

I also can't believe you outed me!!

[45suited]

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Yeah, but a smart player would be like, why would he minibet instead of check? He was last to act!

Good thing players on Party arent smart palyers

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like the mini-bet idea. Let's reverse the tables. Say the OP had nothing. Would those opposed to betting here say, "Why don't you mini-bet? Nobody will call you"? I think not.

As the say in SSHE, they can't call if you don't bet! If you mini-bet, you might get called by the Qh, a K or even raised by an aggressive player that smells weakness.

Not betting seems like the kind of thing that the donks on the 11s would do, no offense (certainly not calling Newt a donk, but really, that's what a low level player would do).

[hyde]

Now I think that both lines are very close. I doubt that you're getting paid off either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unfortunate sad truth/ending I'm sure......

[DyessMan89]

It all depends on your table image, but I like making a over-sized bet into this pot, around 300. I think the only way your going to get payed off is ..

a) someone slowplayed 2 pair or a set
b) They think your bluffing

If its a), theyll certainly raise you. I think the oversized bet at the pot (when last to act and everyones checked to you) will send off an alarm to atleast one player. But then again, I have a LAG image, so this works better for a player like me.

[microbet]

I bet. The reasons for checking and betting have mostly been given, but the is The Need To Call, and someone may call with little reason, and there is the chance someone will think they are snapping off your bluff.

Btw, I am on my blackberry and can't see the suits, but I think I got what happened.

[BabyJesus]

Not raising the two limpers with AJs in the CO is standard? Just want to make sure.

GO ALL IN YOU HAVE THE NUTS (just kidding)

[gren]

If you can't give a free card here, then when can you. If another heart drops.. you get paid and you're only worried about the board pairing up.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't give a free card here, then when can you. If another heart drops.. you get paid and you're only worried about the board pairing up.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is dumb. people slow play way too much. the most useful cash game strategy in pot limit is BUILDING pots. you have the nuts right now. build the pot. dont try to slow play then bet 100 on the river. bet 100 now. get some people in there. bet 75, get some people in there. bet 50, get some people in there. bet SOMETHING. dont check. holla

[Homer315]

I bet 50-100. Donks will call with a pair, thinking you are bluffing entirely, semi bluffing a heart, or have some PP. I think you get at least one or two calls. Then make a similar sized bet on the river. You'll get another call. If the caller doesn't hit his draw, you won't get paid off anyway. If the person was slowplaying, I think they check raise, or they might try to bluff at it themselves, thinking that you would be scared of the smooth call on the turn.

[45suited]

Again, I ask this question to those who say not to at least mini-bet:

If the OP had NOTHING, should he mini-bet, since nobody is going to call?

WTF ever happened to betting for value?

I mean, only an idiot on the 11s is going to get stacked on the river after the flop and turn check through and they hit the non-nut flush, so bet now, hope they have a K or the Qh or whatever.

[Gramps]

Don't be scared of betting something on the flop. You have the best hand a good % of the time, better hands will fold, you may get a free Turn card (vs. checking and getting bet into on a blank Turn), and even if you had total Jack-shat, you could make a good value bluff there (a % of the time, not getting carried away with betting every time, of course). Let your cards/the situation/the board randomize your flop bluffs when checked to acting last - and this board/your hand in unison are screaming "bet this flop!"

[citanul]

in the same line of thinking as raptors, i think the big question here is:

is it more likely that you get paid ANYTHING AT ALL now + on the later streets or more likely that you get paid after the random card hits for free?

i honestly think that there aren't that many cards that are going to cause anyone to give you more action on the river, whereas there's plenty of hands that will give you action on the turn that either will give you the same action on the river (and you'll have missed out on a street of action) or will have your action ruined by the river.

i think the point that i'm trying to make a few beers in here is that while by betting now you have the possibility to get action on two streets, and possibly a good amount of action on either one, by further slowplaying this hand, it is far more likely that you kill your action than increase it, and regardless to that, you miss out on the action that hands may have given you on the turn.

i apologize of those two paragraphs are nearly identical,

citanul

[lastchance]

Bets t200, expecting to get paid.

[WillMagic]

HERO BETS THE FLOP.

HERO BETS THE TURN.

WTF.

Will

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
bet 100 now. get some people in there. bet 75, get some people in there. bet 50, get some people in there. bet SOMETHING. dont check. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

[Chaostracize]

Going to have to disagree with you here, again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I like checking the flop with this many players. The chance of somebody hitting and going for a check raise is high, and you can get paif off well on a turn heart. Once you hit you better bet half pot though, no more free cards, and even the one shtat do won't give you an inordinate amount of action.

[LethalRose]

I build a pot and bet the flop, turn, river

bet!

[curtains]

I like checking these flops too.

[adanthar]

I'm betting 50 here and hoping somebody has 6x6h and decides to get frisky or something.

[ QUOTE ]
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I say check. Pray a heart does come down on the river and a T may bet.

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fixed your post, he would still have the nuts

greg

[/ QUOTE ]

His post didn't need fixing, except for the part where he checks.

A heart will scare away almost all hands that may have called/bet if a non-heart fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but it might also induce a once card flush to make a stupid move. With the nut flush he would be in a very nice position.

By checking it through the likelyhood of someone having anything decent here is very low. Maybe another heart makes someone an expensive second best hand. Plus another heart means no full house (Except for the 2h).

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Still think a heart's the only thing that really hurts you on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
About the only way you are getting paid is if someone makes a horrible play, puts you on a steal and comes over top. Not betting could give a free card to a set, the pot is a decent size, just take er down.

Beefcake

[/ QUOTE ]

Does a set typically let this check through when the third heart hits the turn? On that same note, does a set let the pot on a two heart flop stay closed?


[/ QUOTE ]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Preflop: Raise to 250. A limp from 3 off the button by a stack you have covered screams he wants to see the flop cheap.

Flop: Bet 100-150. The board suggests nobody hit the flop, but since you really didn't either, you should try to win what's in the middle right now.

Turn: If the dispute here is between betting and checking, ask yourself this - what card do you want to come on the river that will help you take more chips from your opponent(s)? The way I see it, the only card that helps you increase what you win is a non-heart broadway card. Thus if you won't get called on the turn, you won't get called on the river 80% of the time.

If you think one of your opponents will bluff the river if a blank falls, check. If you think one of them will play sherrif and call you down with something like 88 or JT. bet about half the pot.

In the long run, I think the choices are close enough that neither choice is a bad one.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Does a set typically let this check through when the third heart hits the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats why you typically aren't getting paid on this hand.

Beefcake

[ReDeYES88]

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Does a set typically let this check through when the third heart hits the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats why you typically aren't getting paid on this hand.

Beefcake

[/ QUOTE ]

. ..ummmm, beefy, i was just responding to your OP /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
About the only way you are getting paid is if someone makes a horrible play, puts you on a steal and comes over top. Not betting could give a free card to a set , the pot is a decent size, just take er down.


[/ QUOTE ]

[RhitTaker]

I think the difference between betting and checking is negligible. I'm a subscriber of the "when truly in doubt, bet" line of thinking, but I don't think anyone's getting rich exploiting the edge on either side of this coin.

However, I'm not a fan of the pre-flop call. I am not sold on the mechanical "x callers in the pot, which means I raise with yy" line of thinking. I think you can effectively eliminate the "limp-reraise monster" hand from a middle position caller. I think AK and QQ are pretty darned unlikely as well. AQ and JJ are more likely than the other hands of which you're afraid, but those are still raising hands.

You want the lead against every other hand. I know that I don't need to extoll the virtues of having the lead in an overcards v. pp situation.