El Diablo, please rank the MTT board

[shaniac]

Inspired by the now-locked/hijacked Jurollo backing thread (and Jurollo's earnest request for El Diablo to evaluate his game), I'd like to reach out to Diablo to share his insight into the relative skills of posters on this board. You seem to be informed enough to have an opinion on how some of us play, and I think we'd all find your opinions and criteria insightful.

[Che]

I second the motion, even though some feelings may be hurt - most likely mine, I suppose, and that's no big deal. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Che

[shaniac]

Yeah baby lay it on us.

[Ulysses]

I don't care to do that, though I have in the past commented on posters who I think play and/or post great (many of whom I have played against some in tourneys and some in ring limit and NL games) in threads like this. I don't really care to list out all the people that I think suck, though.

For the record, let me say that I did not mean to say Jurollo sucked or anything. I was merely pointing out that a skilled player imo has a much higher chance of making $10k by borrowing $500 from a friend and grinding from lower limits and keeping 100% of profits than he has of making $5k by getting staked $5k and giving away 2/3 of his profits. I have not worked out the math to figure out how much one would really be likely to make in either scenario, but given the stakes Jurollo is looking to play, I think if he is really skilled he is making a big financial mistake going this route. The more skilled he is, the more of a mistake this is, imo. If he is really good, I don't understand why he would want to go this route.

MLG, Strassa, and daryn are three players off the top of my head who I have seen or played against that I think both play very well and have a solid understanding of the game. There are many others.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]

MLG, Strassa, and daryn are three players off the top of my head who I have seen or played against that I think both play very well and have a solid understanding of the game. There are many others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to go out on a limb.

[ZBTHorton]

So when you said " I did not question your character, just your poker skill."

You were not insulting his poker skill???

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
So when you said " I did not question your character, just your poker skill."

You were not insulting his poker skill???

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my post in this very thread, you will understand exactly why I question the poker skill of someone who decides to take this route to build up their bankroll. Do the math. It seems obvious to me. Yes, that takes variance into account.

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So when you said " I did not question your character, just your poker skill."

You were not insulting his poker skill???

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my post in this very thread, you will understand exactly why I question the poker skill of someone who decides to take this route to build up their bankroll. Do the math. It seems obvious to me. Yes, that takes variance into account.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not questioning whether this is the BEST way for Justin to raise a bankroll.

You don't seem to think that your comment has negative connotations towards his 'poker ability'. But it really does. Shane didn't start this thread to discuss whether the backing idea was the best way to raise capital, it was to ask you who you thought was a good MTT player because obviously you seem to have a very concrete feeling about Jurollo.

[Lloyd]

It's amazing how this essentially just turned into a continuation of the thread TTIU closed. Bottom line, everyone is getting a little out of hand and taking things too personally. I don't think El Diablo hangs around here enough or plays with people who post here enough to form any accurate conclusion. He's stating his opinions, which he is entitled to do so. I also think he raises some good points. That doesn't mean I think Jurollo shouldn't get backers if that's what he wants. It's a free world. Let's move on to some more important matters in the poker world.

[Jurollo]

Agreed lloyd. I suggest this thread dies as well, if it continues I will lock this myself. There is too many other good things that can be discussed as far as strategy, etc to have the little war between myself and diablo to spill over into 2 threads.
~Justin

[colson10]

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest this thread dies as well, if it continues I will lock this myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful not to abuse your power as a moderator. El Diablo brought up some valid points in that last thread and I was actually disappointed to see it locked. Locking these threads looks a little like you're more worried they will discourage potential backers than turn into a flame war.

[TheTimeIsUp]

This is over. Diablo, please don't post looking for controversey. And everyone else, don't take it personally and add fuel to the flames.

This is over. No more threads about it. Let it die.


** Note to Colson : I am locking these threads. They are turning into attacks on eachother, and it is going back and forth with no solution in sight. These are called flame wars, and I won't allow them in this forum. Period.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
These are called flame wars, and I won't allow them in this forum. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another moderator drunk on his own power...how you doin Dynasty, oops, i mean TTIU

I love lamp

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are called flame wars, and I won't allow them in this forum. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another moderator drunk on his own power...how you doin Dynasty, oops, i mean TTIU

[/ QUOTE ]

this guy is a repeat offender!

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suggest this thread dies as well, if it continues I will lock this myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful not to abuse your power as a moderator. El Diablo brought up some valid points in that last thread and I was actually disappointed to see it locked. Locking these threads looks a little like you're more worried they will discourage potential backers than turn into a flame war.

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING

[Jurollo]

I havent locked anything, if people feel this discussion has value than discuss further.
~Justin

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
I havent locked anything, if people feel this discussion has value than discuss further.
~Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

you made a post saying you were going to lock the thread immediately, but then thought better of it and deleted that post. i saw it in the brief minute it was up. anyway, i think that was the right idea and think you made a wise choice.

[Jurollo]

Well basically I am in a weird middle ground so it is kind of out of my jurisdiction to do any locking, deleting regarding this issue. When it is all said and done maybe this opens the eyes of people attempting to get backed, it isn't completely smooth sailing. I just sincerely hope that any waves made by this don't strip me of moderator privledges as I enjoy vanquishing spam /images/graemlins/grin.gif
~Justin

[Chief911]

I should be ranked #1. This omission is glaring. Please rectify.

Nick

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
I should be ranked #1. This omission is glaring. Please rectify.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't a given still? I take you being #1 as a solid fact, like the sky being blue.
~Justin

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, let me say that I did not mean to say Jurollo sucked or anything. I was merely pointing out that a skilled player imo has a much higher chance of making $10k by borrowing $500 from a friend and grinding from lower limits and keeping 100% of profits than he has of making $5k by getting staked $5k and giving away 2/3 of his profits. I have not worked out the math to figure out how much one would really be likely to make in either scenario, but given the stakes Jurollo is looking to play, I think if he is really skilled he is making a big financial mistake going this route. The more skilled he is, the more of a mistake this is, imo. If he is really good, I don't understand why he would want to go this route.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am gonna ignore all the drama in this thread and simply say that this one paragraph is 100% true/accurate. I will further go on to say that I am currently helping a friend out by doing exactly that, and in trailblazing for him, I've found at least one spot where anyone with a $500 starting roll can *easily* and reasonably break 5K a month with a sustainable ROI (no, I'm not giving this out, so please don't ask) along with a number of other promising candidates.

Backing deals have their place for WSOP events etc. IMO (where you can buy shares of a +EV player who is playing above his roll and treat it as a lottery ticket) but I see no reason that any top player would need one even on a minimal roll.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, let me say that I did not mean to say Jurollo sucked or anything. I was merely pointing out that a skilled player imo has a much higher chance of making $10k by borrowing $500 from a friend and grinding from lower limits and keeping 100% of profits than he has of making $5k by getting staked $5k and giving away 2/3 of his profits. I have not worked out the math to figure out how much one would really be likely to make in either scenario, but given the stakes Jurollo is looking to play, I think if he is really skilled he is making a big financial mistake going this route. The more skilled he is, the more of a mistake this is, imo. If he is really good, I don't understand why he would want to go this route.


[/ QUOTE ]

El D, the other side of the coin is, what is it worth if someone guaranteed you that your worst possible outcome from playing 100+ $50s over 3 month, was breakeven?

The real question may be, why would a backer risk $1000, for 2/3 of of a suggested 15% ROI, or a $100 return over 3 months.

[CardSharpCook]

Sniper, that is a 40% annual return. That is clearly appealing to anyone with money to invest.

Secondly, I have to vehemently AGREE with both El Diablo and Adanthar. Give me $2000 and four eager students, and we will clear $10000 from the Stars .25/.50 limit game inside of a month. In another month I'd expect each student to make $5000 on their own. Now when I say eager student, I mean someone who has never even seen poker played before. Anyone on this site *should* be able to do the same on their own. The resources are here. The opportunity is there. All it requires is the patience and discipline of the player.

As for Jurollo's proposal. I see it as a misdirection of his time and energy. Fine he is better at NL than Limit. But look at this and tell me how he is making more than he would working for his school's info desk? He is certainly taking a big enough risk, but where is his reward? Perhaps the reward is that he'll be able to spend his time playing poker (oh joy that that is).

CSC

[Jurollo]

Brendan,
I appreciate your concerns and those that you echoed to me when I first started this endeavor. This last thing I want to do is give someone a raw deal or give myself a raw deal. The threads that were created were a gauge of interest and also for me to create a baseline of individuals that would be involved so I could then look at the facts again and make a truly informed decision on whether being backed for MTT would be fruitful or not. I have received enough interest so far to ensure that I could easily receive the funding I was looking for and have also received emails to those involved and have urged EVERYONE involved to take a week to think things over, this includes myself. Nothing is set in stone in the least and I am going to evaluate all my options, including others not mentioned in the prior threads before moving in one direction or the other. I was once told to weigh every option available before I proceed in a given direction and that is what I have done/am doing. I by no means meant to cause any trouble in this forum, divide the MTT'ers (who are a great group of regulars) or anything else of the sort and apologize vehemently for the debacle that this has become, but I am simply making sure I cover all bases before moving on in my poker career. Thank you all for your comments they all have value and will no doubt help others in the future to understand the intricacies of such deals. This is the last I will be directly posting with any true substance in these threads unless I am directly asked for more input.
~Justin

P.S.
Since it is my thread will there be public outcry if I now lock my Backing proposal thread as any communication will be taken off site from here on in.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
The real question may be, why would a backer risk $1000, for 2/3 of of a suggested 15% ROI, or a $100 return over 3 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, that is a 40% annual return. That is clearly appealing to anyone with money to invest.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the 40% annualized return looks appealing, you are accepting a 10:1 risk:reward ratio to get it. My real point however is the same as yours (we are talking small dollars here)... the reward after 3 months is only $100.

If the backer wanted an extra $100, why not just just open up another table on their own screen and get it in a much shorter time than 3 months.

[ QUOTE ]
Give me $2000 and four eager students, and we will clear $10000 from the Stars .25/.50 limit game inside of a month. In another month I'd expect each student to make $5000 on their own. Now when I say eager student, I mean someone who has never even seen poker played before.

[/ QUOTE ]

When do you open shop? If you could teach someone who has never played poker to earn ( 10,000 * .50 / 4 = ) *5,000* big bets in their first month, I'd bet you'd have alot of eager students!!

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]

When do you open shop? If you could teach someone who has never played poker to earn ( 10,000 * .50 / 4 = ) *5,000* big bets in their first month, I'd bet you'd have alot of eager students!!


[/ QUOTE ]

I tried once with 2 poker players. It didn't take. They were back to $5/$10 SnGs in a matter of minutes. Despite the implicit offer I make to non-poker players, I've yet to find an "eager student". But the theory is sound.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried once with 2 poker players. It didn't take. They were back to $5/$10 SnGs in a matter of minutes. Despite the implicit offer I make to non-poker players, I've yet to find an "eager student". But the theory is sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly would be interested in hearing what theory/method you would use to achieve 5,000 BB each in 1 month.

Personally have a hard time thinking this is possible even if you were sitting behind all 4 of them colluding at the same tables.

[CardSharpCook]

No the idea is that you move up in limits as your BR increases. Use the base: move up every time you have 300BBs at the next higher level. This is how players who go broke do it. They find some friend to loan them $500, sit at the lowest limit table they can find and slowly grind it out. So, start at .25/.50 with $150, move up to .5/1 when you have $300, 1/2 with $600, etc.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Give me $2000 and four eager students, and we will clear $10000 from the Stars .25/.50 limit game inside of a month. Now when I say eager student, I mean someone who has never even seen poker played before.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're saying $500 -> $3000 correct?

in one month? from a student whos never played poker? and is eager to play the long grueling hours with the variance?

[CardSharpCook]

I'm saying $500 -> $2000 in a month, yes. And yes, I'd prefer a non-poker player. Poker players tend to have certain mental defeciencies that hold them back (I am no exception). And yes, willing to put in the 40 hrs a week, and capable of dealing with the variance.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
No the idea is that you move up in limits as your BR increases. Use the base: move up every time you have 300BBs at the next higher level. This is how players who go broke do it. They find some friend to loan them $500, sit at the lowest limit table they can find and slowly grind it out. So, start at .25/.50 with $150, move up to .5/1 when you have $300, 1/2 with $600, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, people who have sense enough to do that don't go broke.

citanul

[adanthar]

Pfft. Limit both sucks for this hours-wise and has far too much variance, plus you'll increase that even further when you start to go north of 5/10 with people who have never played the game before.

Stick to SNG's/MTT's (yes, MTT's) and you'll find much better ways of doing this. You just have to pick your targets very carefully and look at structure to determine the biggest EV opportunities.

[Sniper]

CSC, First you said...

[ QUOTE ]
Give me $2000 and four eager students, and we will clear $10000 from the Stars .25/.50 limit game inside of a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are saying...

[ QUOTE ]
No the idea is that you move up in limits as your BR increases. Use the base: move up every time you have 300BBs at the next higher level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously earning 5,000 Big Bets from the .25/.50 and pyramiding levels every 300 Big Bets is very different.

Pyramiding would look something like...
Week 1 - 40 Hrs 4-Tabling .25/.50 @ 2BB/Hr/Tbl = +160
Week 2 - 40 Hrs 4-Tabling .50/1 @ 2BB/Hr/Tbl = +320
Week 3 - 40 Hrs 4 Tabling 1/2 @ 2BB/Hr/Tbl = +640
Week 4a - 20 Hrs 4-Tabling 2/4 @ 2BB/Hr/Tbl = +640
Week 4b - 20 Hrs 4 Tabling 3/6 @ 2BB/Hr/Tbl = +960
Total = +2,720 (+2400 if they stayed at 2/4 for the last 20Hrs)

Do you really think that you could teach someone who is committed but who hasn't played poker to consistantly beat the game thru 2/4 or 3/6 4-Tabling @ 2 BB/Hr/Tbl, in their 1st month of play?

While 1,200 BB pyramiding is certainly more in the realm of possibility than 5,000 BB in 1 month, I still think this is a stretch.

You have certainly got me thinking about the possibilities of bringing in a few interns to add to the number of tables that could reasonably be played each month.

[Jdanz]

n/m