View Full Version : BB defense...this is ugly
Villian stats were 13.5/7/3.3 and WtSD of 50% in 40ish hands
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.
Flop: (4.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.
Turn: (5.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.
River: (7.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.
Final Pot: 9.25 BB
I don't like how I played this. Anyone have a good line here?
pokerjunky
08-26-2005, 01:00 AM
I probably would have check raised the flop, bet the turn, and check folded the river.
bobhalford
08-26-2005, 01:10 AM
I probably would have played it the same, and then check-folded the river. You aren't folding any hands that beat you, and most likely he is on the same draw as you and has an A or the Q of hearts. He won't fold these hands because he thinks you are on a flush draw a lot of the time and missed, like you did.
Harv72b
08-26-2005, 03:16 AM
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I probably would have check raised the flop, bet the turn, and check folded the river.
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And if he 3-bets my flop c/r, I check/call the turn & check/fold the river UI.
KJo is not a very good starting hand. I'd just fold it against a raise.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 10:44 AM
Not against a TAG open-raise from CO, whose open-raising requirements are going to be much less than optimum.
3 bet preflop. this is a must. unless you know this player will only raise with premium hands. once you 3 bet preflop you will gain so much more information. if he has the ace, he will raise the flop and you can play youu draw accordingly.
but speaking long term you will win so so many more of these hands by 3 betting preflop. your opponent will miss his flop 2/3 of the time. i 3 bet any 2 suited face cards, ATo, KJo, and against looser raisers KTo QJo A9o
sean c
08-26-2005, 10:46 AM
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KJo is not a very good starting hand. I'd just fold it against a raise.
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Villian open/raised from the CO I would call this all day long.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 10:50 AM
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3 bet preflop. this is a must. unless you know this player will only raise with premium hands. once you 3 bet preflop you will gain so much more information. if he has the ace, he will raise the flop and you can play youu draw accordingly.
but speaking long term you will win so so many more of these hands by 3 betting preflop. your opponent will miss his flop 2/3 of the time. i 3 bet any 2 suited face cards, ATo, KJo, and against looser raisers KTo QJo A9o
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This seems overboard. Given the CO's TAG stats, you *are* likely behind, but not so much that you should fold. Nothing indicates he is a loose raiser, so raising when you are likely behind just loses you more money.
brazilio
08-26-2005, 10:53 AM
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KJo is not a very good starting hand. I'd just fold it against a raise.
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Villian open/raised from the CO I would 3-bet this all day long.
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fixed
brazilio
08-26-2005, 10:58 AM
This is the worst advice yet in this thread. Stop making a correlation between TAG stats and a steal.
sean c
08-26-2005, 11:01 AM
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KJo is not a very good starting hand. I'd just fold it against a raise.
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Villian open/raised from the CO I would 3-bet this all day long.
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fixed
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Against this type of villian I don't completely agree with this. Three betting or calling is better than folding IMO but I don't think its an auto three bet.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 11:08 AM
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This is the worst advice yet in this thread. Stop making a correlation between TAG stats and a steal.
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Sorry - I tend to save raises for situations where I think I am ahead or think I have an equity advantage. In this situation, I do not think this is the case - I think more often that not you are behind here; sometimes, you're even dominated. I suppose this is where we disagree - you think we're more often ahead here?
EDIT: wait - what exactly are you trying to say in your post? Do you mean I should "start" making a correlation between TAG stats and a steal? -- meaning the Villian is more likely stealing and, therefore, we should raise back? If you are going to attack ppl's advice, maybe you could articulate some better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
You can't fold K-Jo to a late raise heads up when you are in the BB. If you fold in this spot routinely, you are getting run over in the blinds.
You also can't auto 3 bet with this hand like it's a world beater every time, because it isn't. It may be right to do so sometimes, but in this case, with the information given in the original post, it isn't for 2 reasons:
1) The raiser is tight
2) The raiser is coming in from the CO, not the button. It DOES make a difference.
Calling is fine.
Your flop bet was raised, which should give you some information. If he had missed this flop, he would be hard pressed to continue on. Unless he has a big /images/graemlins/heart.gif, an ace, nine or decent PP, your bet puts a lot of pressure on him. But, he raised, indicating he is not going away and he has one of those things (unless he is on a total bluff). In order for your three bet semibluff to be worthwhile, you really have to put him on EXACTLY a big /images/graemlins/heart.gif draw, otherwise you are putting money in as an underdog. Also, if you do catch your flush, he may toss it.
peterchi
08-26-2005, 11:56 AM
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I probably would have check raised the flop, bet the turn, and check folded the river.
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And if he 3-bets my flop c/r, I check/call the turn & check/fold the river UI.
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peterchi
08-26-2005, 12:00 PM
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KJo is not a very good starting hand. I'd just fold it against a raise.
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Villian open/raised from the CO I would 3-bet this all day long.
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fixed
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MAYBE 3-bet, but not all day long. I'd need a better read on villain; KJo is certainly worthy of blind defense, but I personally hate this hand a lot. I'd be more inclined to 3-bet if I was fairly sure I could take it down UI on the flop or turn based on villain's tendencies.
sy_or_bust
08-26-2005, 12:11 PM
The 3-bet preflop wouldn't be for value in this situation. The player described seems less likely to be fooling around with T9o hands in this spot, and probably has a tighter stealing range than most TAGs. This generally means a showdown hand, like Ax, PP, with some sparse K/Q hands.
You can 3-bet to take control of the hand against a player who raises/folds too much, but this is a better move when your hand has showdown value. Essentially you're trying to convince them that, when they whiff the flop, they should fold. Doesn't work as well against tight stealers.
So I prefer calling and checkraising the flop here (you can do this on most flops if you know your opponent well enough).
he has only played 40 hands or so with the opponent. default play is to open raise from the co, so why should i believe this guy has me beat with KJo. he could be raising much much weaker hands here. i would say anywhere from QJ to any pocket pair maybe a suited ace.
blind play is roughly 20% of your game. knowing when to 3 bet and who to do it agaist is vital. like i said unless you know he will only steal with premium hands, you hsould 3 bet. even if we are up against a dominating hand, we have one of his out and he will miss his flop 2/3 of the time...since he is a tag he will give up on the flop or turn when he misses which will be the majority of the time. but chances are we are not dominated anyway.
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default play is to open raise from the co
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Actually, for a tight player, the default play is to fold from the CO, not raise.
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he could be raising much much weaker hands here. i would say anywhere from QJ to any pocket pair maybe a suited ace.
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You're behind to all of these except Q-J.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 01:26 PM
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he has only played 40 hands or so with the opponent. default play is to open raise from the co, so why should i believe this guy has me beat with KJo. he could be raising much much weaker hands here. i would say anywhere from QJ to any pocket pair maybe a suited ace.
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You do realize that you are ahead of only one of the items you listed, right (QJ)? All of the other "weaker" hand you have listed - pocket pair, suited ace - are, in fact, ahead.
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blind play is roughly 20% of your game. knowing when to 3 bet and who to do it agaist is vital. like i said unless you know he will only steal with premium hands, you hsould 3 bet. even if we are up against a dominating hand, we have one of his out and he will miss his flop 2/3 of the time...since he is a tag he will give up on the flop or turn when he misses which will be the majority of the time. but chances are we are not dominated anyway.
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Maybe - you can make a case for taking control of the hand with a pre-flop 3-bet, assuming that the flop will miss your opponent. However, if I want to push a potential stealer off his hand, I would prefer a flop checkraise rather than pre-flop 3-betting a somewhat marginal offsuit hand heads-up, out-of-position. A good opponent will realize that the flop is likely to miss you, too, and will be capable of playing back at you, as well. I think a flop checkraise carries a little more weight and it also gives me the advantage to see if the a) flop hits me or b) the flop likely did not hit him.
Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
brazilio
08-26-2005, 01:36 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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Which did you run out of today: Paxil or Rtitalin?
sean c
08-26-2005, 01:38 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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This is an open/raise from a steal position. It's blind defense plain and simple.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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This is an open/raise from a steal position. It's blind defense plain and simple.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
brazilio
08-26-2005, 01:39 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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Which did you run out of today: Paxil or Rtitalin?
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Stop running back to SSH, quoting information verbatim that's not relevant to the current hand, and then using that to defend your 95% fold BB to steal. Apparently you're just perpetually incompetent.
sy_or_bust
08-26-2005, 01:39 PM
First - he doesn't. There's an asterisk which applies here for certain.
Second, if you're thinking in terms of SSHE's preflop charts you aren't going to get TAG blind defense correct.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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Which did you run out of today: Paxil or Rtitalin?
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Stop running back to SSH, quoting information verbatim that's not relevant to the current hand, and then using that to defend your 95% fold BB to steal.
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Miller says to fold. If he believe you shouldn't fold to a BB steal attempt in a low stakes game, he would have said so.
peterchi
08-26-2005, 01:40 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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/images/graemlins/grin.gif
brazilio
08-26-2005, 01:41 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE CO OPEN RAISE
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Which did you run out of today: Paxil or Rtitalin?
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Stop running back to SSH, quoting information verbatim that's not relevant to the current hand, and then using that to defend your 95% fold BB to steal.
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Miller says to fold. If he believe you shouldn't fold to a BB steal attempt in a low stakes game, he would have said so.
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YSSCKY
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First - he doesn't. There's an asterisk which applies here for certain.
Second, if you're thinking in terms of SSHE's preflop charts you aren't going to get TAG blind defense correct.
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Asteriks says not to fold for higher limit games.
sean c
08-26-2005, 01:42 PM
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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This is an open/raise from a steal position. It's blind defense plain and simple.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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Well then why don't you pm Ed and ask him what he thinks. We are clearly morans and you have no business reading such pointless advice anyway. Sheesh.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 01:42 PM
This thread has taken a turn for the worse and a turn for the amusing simultaneously.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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This is an open/raise from a steal position. It's blind defense plain and simple.
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Miller says to fold KJo against a raise when you are in BB.
SSH P.81.
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Well then why don't you pm Ed and ask him what he thinks. We are clearly morans and you have no business reading such pointless advice anyway. Sheesh.
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I don't need to PM him. If he believed that there is an exception, then he would have stated so in the book.
brazilio
08-26-2005, 01:44 PM
I can't tell if this is a gimmick or not.
sthief09
08-26-2005, 01:44 PM
yeah with K high I like 3-betting preflop to gain the initiative with a good hand. with a decent A high I'd rather call since you can get to showdown. with K high it would be niec to get A high to fold the flop or turn.
the way you played it postflop minimized your chances of taking it down unimproved. generally weak leading headsup is better for encouraging calls or raises when you have a big hand and not for semibluffing. betting out basically says "I don't have an A."
brazilio is right. the guy who quoted SSH is in big trouble unless he learns to think for himself. anyone who folds preflop is a weak tight bitch. I lost my SSH but there's about 0% chance Ed meant that against a CO raise, and if you can't tell the difference between a CO raise and an EP or even MP raise, then, again, you're in trouble
You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
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the guy who quoted SSH is in big trouble unless he learns to think for himself
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Good job insulting Miller. Real good.
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You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
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So you are saying Miller's advice is wrong here. You are saying he should have written that there is an exception when going against tight-agressive, right?
sthief09
08-26-2005, 01:47 PM
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the guy who quoted SSH is in big trouble unless he learns to think for himself
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Good job insulting Miller. Real good.
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you're not understanding the difference between the situation in the book and the situation at hand
nevermind though. this post pretty much answers any questions about whether you're trolling
peterchi
08-26-2005, 01:47 PM
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I can't tell if this is a gimmick or not.
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Me neither. If he's being serious, I feel sorry for him.
If he's messing around, he's not nearly funny enough yet.
sthief09
08-26-2005, 01:48 PM
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I can't tell if this is a gimmick or not.
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Me neither. If he's being serious, I feel sorry for him.
If he's messing around, he's not nearly funny enough yet.
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keep in mind this guy is the author of this gem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=324 0264&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit= 25&Main=3240264&Search=true&where=&Name=42434&date range=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post3240264) and this pathetic attempt at humor (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=322660 3&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=2 5&Main=3226603&Search=true&where=&Name=42434&dater ange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post3226603)
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the guy who quoted SSH is in big trouble unless he learns to think for himself
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Good job insulting Miller. Real good.
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you're not understanding the difference between the situation in the book and the situation at hand
nevermind though. this post pretty much answers any questions about whether you're trolling
eat a dick
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No need to call names and insult me. You say the "situation" is different in SSH. No it's not. Miller says to fold BB to any raise when you have KJ. If he believed a different situation would warrant calling/3-betting, then he would have said so.
I'll have to look it up when I get home tonight. He does not deal with blind-stealing situations b/c it is an advanced topic that you do not need for the small stakes games described in his book. In a lot of other places, such as value betting on the river he clearly states that you take a different strategy against loose passive (bad) opponents rather than tight agressives (good) opponents.
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I can't tell if this is a gimmick or not.
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Me neither. If he's being serious, I feel sorry for him.
If he's messing around, he's not nearly funny enough yet.
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keep in mind this guy is the author of this gem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=324 0264&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit= 25&Main=3240264&Search=true&where=&Name=42434&date range=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post3240264) and this pathetic attempt at humor (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=322660 3&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=2 5&Main=3226603&Search=true&where=&Name=42434&dater ange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post3226603)
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You are straying from the issue. Issue is BB steal. I told you what Miller says. You freaked out. Emotions, dude. Emotions. Gotta control them.
sthief09
08-26-2005, 01:52 PM
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You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.
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you win!
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I'll have to look it up when I get home tonight. He does not deal with blind-stealing situations b/c it is an advanced topic that you do not need for the small stakes games described in his book. In a lot of other places, such as value betting on the river he clearly states that you take a different strategy against loose passive (bad) opponents rather than tight agressives (good) opponents.
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He addresses blind stealing in the asteriks and says not to fold KJ only in higher limit games.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 01:53 PM
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You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
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So you are saying Miller's advice is wrong here. You are saying he should have written that there is an exception when going against tight-agressive, right?
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I'm fairly certain that what is being said to you by everyone here is that SSHE does not capture every single situation that you will possibly encounter. I bet there is even a disclaimer in there that says the same. The book would need to be considerably larger to account for every single situation that sammy1 might run into. The book provides guidelines for various poker situations and attempts to teach you how to think for yourself.
Mr. Miller has failed in this regard, however, with you.
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You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.
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you win!
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If you have a problem with SSH, which you apparently do, take it up with Miller, not me. I'm telling you what he said.
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You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying Miller's advice is wrong here. You are saying he should have written that there is an exception when going against tight-agressive, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly certain that what is being said to you by everyone here is that SSHE does not capture every single situation that you will possibly encounter. I bet there is even a disclaimer in there that says the same. The book would need to be considerably larger to account for every single situation that sammy1 might run into. The book provides guidelines for various poker situations and attempts to teach you how to think for yourself.
Mr. Miller has failed in this regard, however, with you.
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Nice insult at the end. But I'll ignore it. Miller does given an exception in the asteriks for higher limit games. Therefore, logic dictates, that by stating that one should not fold KJ to steal in higher limit games, he is saying that you should in lower limit games.
Come on, this isn't complicated.
Do you know why he says you change in higher stakes game? b/c the players are better. If you had a brain, then you would figure out that you can still change your play against better players, even though it is still a small stakes game.
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Do you know why he says you change in higher stakes game? b/c the players are better. If you had a brain, then you would figure out that you can still change your play against better players, even though it is still a small stakes game.
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Wow, another insult against me. You say that the higher limits exception is because players are better. Nope. Miller gives an eception for higher limit games because "the impact of the rake is neglible."
Whatever man. You have had a whole bunch of people that are beating the [censored] out of the low limit games tell you that you're wrong. Take that for whatever it's worth.
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Whatever man. You have had a whole bunch of people that are beating the [censored] out of the low limit games tell you that you're wrong. Take that for whatever it's worth.
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It's not about me. I am only stating what SSH says to do. The book gives one exception only. Apparently people can't deal with that.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 02:04 PM
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You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying Miller's advice is wrong here. You are saying he should have written that there is an exception when going against tight-agressive, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly certain that what is being said to you by everyone here is that SSHE does not capture every single situation that you will possibly encounter. I bet there is even a disclaimer in there that says the same. The book would need to be considerably larger to account for every single situation that sammy1 might run into. The book provides guidelines for various poker situations and attempts to teach you how to think for yourself.
Mr. Miller has failed in this regard, however, with you.
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Nice insult at the end. But I'll ignore it. Miller does given an exception in the asteriks for higher limit games. Therefore, logic dictates, that by stating that one should not fold KJ to steal in higher limit games, he is saying that you should in lower limit games.
Come on, this isn't complicated.
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No, it isn't complicated; I did not insult you. I stated the truth - you are not thinking for yourself and are following Miller's book blindly. Being the glutton that I am, I will try again.
Suppose you are holding KJo in the BB and its folded around to an uber-maniac in SB that raises every hand pre-flop 100% of the time over the 100,000 hands you have logged. Are you saying that you would fold your hand here? I do hope not; if you don't, this is an example of a scenario not covered by Miller SSHE that differs from the page you cited.
If you do fold your hand here, I suggest you move down in limits immediately. Or play at a table that I am at. Either one.
krishanleong
08-26-2005, 02:08 PM
Do you still think folding to a bet on the end can cost you the pot whereas calling only costs 1 bet?
Miller isn't always right. He is definitely simplifying.
Krishan
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You cannot take the advice in SSHE as the bible for every single poker situation. It is invaluable for the concepts you need to use playing against loose, non-thinking opponents. But you will be crushed if you follow the book blindly against tight-aggresive opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying Miller's advice is wrong here. You are saying he should have written that there is an exception when going against tight-agressive, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly certain that what is being said to you by everyone here is that SSHE does not capture every single situation that you will possibly encounter. I bet there is even a disclaimer in there that says the same. The book would need to be considerably larger to account for every single situation that sammy1 might run into. The book provides guidelines for various poker situations and attempts to teach you how to think for yourself.
Mr. Miller has failed in this regard, however, with you.
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Nice insult at the end. But I'll ignore it. Miller does given an exception in the asteriks for higher limit games. Therefore, logic dictates, that by stating that one should not fold KJ to steal in higher limit games, he is saying that you should in lower limit games.
Come on, this isn't complicated.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it isn't complicated; I did not insult you. I stated the truth - you are not thinking for yourself and are following Miller's book blindly. Being the glutton that I am, I will try again.
Suppose you are holding KJo in the BB and its folded around to an uber-maniac that raises every hand pre-flop 100% of the time over the 100,000 hands you have logged. Are you saying that you would fold your hand here? I do hope not; if you don't, this is an example of a scenario not covered by Miller SSHE that differs from the page you cited.
If you do fold your hand here, I suggest you move down in limits immediately. Or play at a table that I am at. Either one.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not about whether I would fold. I simply stated what SSH says to do. Miller gives an exception to folding KJ - and that exception does not apply here.
Against a maniac I am defending of course. But Miller says only to defend in higher limit games.
Do you understand the issue here (which is different from the original post)? It's not whether folding is right or wrong. It's whether SSH says it is right or wrong. SSH says folding is right. That's all.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you still think folding to a bet on the end can cost you the pot whereas calling only costs 1 bet?
Miller isn't always right. He is definitely simplifying.
Krishan
[/ QUOTE ]
Issue is not what I think. Issue is what SSH says. I was just repeating what it says. Now, whether SSH is right or wrong is a different issue.
This is my last post, on the off chance that you are not just messing around. Ed Miller wrote a book focusing a few important topics to help people beat low stakes games. I'm sure in there somewhere he stresses this. Not calling raises with hands that are likely dominated, such as KJ, is very important when first learning to beat these games, especially as non-thinking opponents are likely raising hands that beat you. Defending against blind stealing from better opponents is a higher level topic that Miller does not discuss for simplicity and b/c it is not relevant in the games such as those discussed in his books. To beat the 2/4 games on party poker which is a tougher game than the ones described by Miller, you have to adjust your strategy to play against better players. Good luck.
Then why the [censored] are you wasting everyones time. We don't care what SSHE says about every little situation.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 02:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is not about whether I would fold. I simply stated what SSH says to do. Miller gives an exception to folding KJ - and that exception does not apply here.
Against a maniac I am defending of course. But Miller says only to defend in higher limit games.
Do you understand the issue here (which is different from the original post)? It's not whether folding is right or wrong. It's whether SSH says it is right or wrong. SSH says folding is right. That's all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well then, you have cited reference information that even you admit may not be applicable in all situations. This is precisely what everyone in this forum is telling you here - the advice you are citing in SSHE does not apply for blind stealing situations. We all acknowledge that the stuff printed on SSHE p.81 is the stuff printed on SSHE p.81 - no arguments there.
In general, to add value to threads, you should try to cite sources where the information you are presenting is actually pertinent to the situation at hand. Otherwise, [censored] off and troll elsewhere.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not about whether I would fold. I simply stated what SSH says to do. Miller gives an exception to folding KJ - and that exception does not apply here.
Against a maniac I am defending of course. But Miller says only to defend in higher limit games.
Do you understand the issue here (which is different from the original post)? It's not whether folding is right or wrong. It's whether SSH says it is right or wrong. SSH says folding is right. That's all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well then, you have cited reference information that even you admit may not be applicable in all situations. This is precisely what everyone in this forum is telling you here - the advice you are citing in SSHE does not apply for blind stealing situations. We all acknowledge that the stuff printed on SSHE p.81 is the stuff printed on SSHE p.81 - no arguments there.
In general, to add value to threads, you should try to cite sources where the information you are presenting is actually pertinent to the situation at hand. Otherwise, [censored] off and troll elsewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, yet another insult. Seriously, this might be the most angry forum on teh net. But I'll ignore your insult and move on to your argument.
You wrote: "you have cited reference information that even you admit may not be applicable in all situations. This is precisely what everyone in this forum is telling you here - the advice you are citing in SSHE does not apply for blind stealing situations."
That is wrong. I simply said that Miller on p.81 said that you fold KJo to a BB steal (with only one exception). Now, many of you argued that SSH did not mean that in this situation. I responded that SSH did in fact mean that because only one exception was given, which implies that Miller considered exceptions to the rule and stated any he thought were relevant (in this case, one).
Do you not understand the issue here?
krishanleong
08-26-2005, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you still think folding to a bet on the end can cost you the pot whereas calling only costs 1 bet?
Miller isn't always right. He is definitely simplifying.
Krishan
[/ QUOTE ]
Issue is not what I think. Issue is what SSH says. I was just repeating what it says. Now, whether SSH is right or wrong is a different issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's wrong. We all know that.
Krishan
Lots of stuff in SSHE is not applicable to low limit internet games. No one [censored] cares.
JinX11
08-26-2005, 02:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I simply said that Miller on p.81 said that you fold KJo to a BB steal (with only one exception).
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree on this point. SSHE does not mention anything here relating to folding to a "steal". A raise coming from a non-steal position (aka, NOT a steal) is different than a raise coming from a steal position (aka, a steal).
I'm done now...someone else can try to help you.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I simply said that Miller on p.81 said that you fold KJo to a BB steal (with only one exception).
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree on this point. SSHE does not mention anything here relating to folding to a "steal". A raise coming from a non-steal position (aka, NOT a steal) is different than a raise coming from a steal position (aka, a steal).
I'm done now...someone else can try to help you.
[/ QUOTE ]
P. 81 asteriks. It says it plain English. Take care.
You get my vote for douchebag of the year. Take care.
[ QUOTE ]
You get my vote for douchebag of the year. Take care.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice. Way to discuss the issue. You might consider changing your screenname to Ad Hominem.
My point is that there is no issue. People that know what they're talking about are discussing a hand. You pipe in with "on pg. 81 of SSHE", Ed Miller says you should play the hand a different way. People spend their time trying to discuss a simple yet a very important point, i.e. you can't blindly follow the advice of SSHE or any other book as they are not applicable to all poker situations. You have told us what it says on pg. 81 of SSHE. We don't [censored] care. I for one will never respond to any of your questions again.
chief444
08-26-2005, 02:40 PM
Dude...Please stop. Please. If you try actually listening to some advice on this forum instead of cluttering it with this bs you might actually learn a little about this game some day. We've all read a book or two.
deception5
08-26-2005, 03:28 PM
After reading the rest of this thread I don't know why I'm bothering but here you go.
SSH page 76:
"In this section we recommend a play for each specific hand in common preflop situations. We list hands that are playable in certain spots and recommend raising with some of them. These recommendations are not rigid. View them like training wheels for preflop play: When you feel lost look to these guidelines for a decent default play. An expert player who fully understands preflop and postflop concepts will frequently deviate (correctly) from these suggestions."
Perhaps since everyone in this thread disagrees, with following SSH's advice for this situation, you should take note rather than try to argue a moot point and sounding like a table coach. SSH doesn't walk you through every situation but gives some blanket guidelines for playing these hands. After all it doesn't distinguish between a raise from UTG, MP, CO, or the SB - it would just confuse most players. Rigidly following this chart preflop will reduce your profit and long term potential as a player, it's supposed to be a guideline not a bible.
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