I hate having the lower straight! (two Bellagio 8-16 hands)

[rharless]

Requesting feedback, please, on the following two Bellagio 8-16 hands...

First, I will readily admit up front, these hands are both very loose calls from blind positions. My reasoning, probably faulty in "over"-adjusting, is that this table is ridiculously ripe. Four have never played casino poker before (on the flop, one asks "how many more cards are coming?"). Onto the hands...

#1 I am in the SB with 8/forums/images/icons/heart.gif4/forums/images/icons/heart.gif (stop laughing). There are six limpers and I complete, BB checks.

Flop: 5/forums/images/icons/heart.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif7/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check, EP bets, two callers, I call (intending to checkraise the turn).

Turn: [5/forums/images/icons/heart.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif7/forums/images/icons/heart.gif]T/forums/images/icons/club.gif

I check, EP bets, all muck /forums/images/icons/frown.gif and I raise. EP looks a bit startled and calls.

River: [5/forums/images/icons/heart.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif7/forums/images/icons/heart.gif]T/forums/images/icons/club.gifA/forums/images/icons/club.gif

I bet, EP hesitates, taps his cards, then slumps and calls. I table my hand and he shows 98 of diamonds to win with the flopped higher straight. EP comments that he was sure I had the flush. ???

I privately kick myself for completing 84s in the SB in the first place. My Left Neighbor publicly chastises me for checkraising the turn. He said it was obvious that the guy was betting an 89. ???

#2 I am in the BB with black 86o. UTG raises. There are five or six cold callers, the SB calls, and I take a deep breath and call.

Flop: K 9 5 (two hearts)

We check, UTG bets, he gets three callers, and I call. I pray for a black 7 on the turn. Like magic...

Turn: [K 9 5] BLACK 7

I check. UTG bets. Various players muck. Now the Village Idiot at the table in late position throws out $16 and says "and $16 more" but the dealer stops him from the string raise. (The Village Idiot is the same one who asked earlier in the game, how many cards come after the flop?) UTG laughs. Now I raise. UTG says "well he didn't scare me but you do" and mucks. Village Idiot calls.

River: [K 9 5] 7 J

I bet. Village Idiot laughs, shakes his finger at me like he just got me on the river, and he raises. I really think I should reraise but for some reason the gut says to just call. I wonder if he has QT; he has T8o. That one never even occurred to me!!

At this point, Left Hand neighbor who had been UTG now chastises me again for "lowering yourself to playing the way that the rest of them [at the table] do."

-----------

These hands really bother me mostly because I really question the preflop calls I made, which resulted in expensive second place finishes. These were just the worst players I have run across in a long time.

Some sample hands that had me gasping:

--board is A8TT2 and Village Idiot raises the river with 82o
--flop is T5T, and with various action, there's five players in for a capped flop. The turn is a 5, and the river is an A, and the winning hand is J5s for bottom boat (who called three cold on the flop).

[Tyler Durden]

I won't focus on the preflop calls since you're already upset about that. I'd bet out on that first flop. I don't think it's good to slowplay a flopped straight. You also have a gutshot to the SF, that's nice. It would have cost you more money here but I like it anyway.

On hand 2, I don't think you did anything bad after the flop.

[Forsaken]

I agree with Tyler.

There are several reasons to play the flop fast in hand #1. There could be a bigger flush draw out, you can get conterfeited (often someone has a draw to a higher straight) and many people will call on the flop but fold the turn.

[bernie]

hand 1

why not limp in sb with this hand? id see the flop for 1/2 bet no problem. folding is a little too tight. id have c/r the flop though. the EP certainly didnt charge you much for your draw and even gave you a free showdown. nice image on this table. given the idiots comments after the hand, maybe this table was playing more predictable than you thought. are they only betting when they have it? however, couldnt EP be betting with many hands here on the turn? i like the raise, id just have done it a street earlier.

hand 2

not sure id call this preflop. suited maybe but not offsuit.

your c/r was fine, it wouldve made any flush draw pay a bundle. the idiot UTG was probably referring to your preflop play. but post flop i think you played fine.

b

[bernie]

a bigger flush draw isnt folding. and a single bet isnt going to charge them much. that and theyll also usually have the right odds to call anyways...

it wouldve been nicer if the bet came from her right. but even then, id be pumping this flop.

b

[Ed Miller]

I think both preflop calls are fine. I complete every time with 84s in that situation. 86o for a whole preflop bet is a little less obvious, but I think it's probably ok with that much action. You just happened to get unlucky. Failing to complete in that situation with 84s (Tommy Angelo notwithstanding) is, IMO, a pretty big error.

[rharless]

I guess the 84s isn't as bad as I thought. Since my normal game is a one blind structure, I don't make SB decisions very often.

I agree with your assessment of the hand 1 flop... I guess I just didn't like that the bet came from my direct left.

I am guessing maybe this guy put me on clubs because he has a very tight image of me? (quite deserved, of course) The table was definitely a poker mecca for betting with garbage.

Good news is that the deck hit me again yesterday, but resulting in several 1st places, not 2nd places. Yesterday was one of those all-too-rare "top boat vs second boat" kind of days. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[rharless]

I guess one thing that makes me feel less appalled at my 86o call is that I was distinctly aware that I was completing the action (UTG raised, I am BB), and I'm in great position relative to the raiser to maximize a pot if need be.

All the same, the call must be at best, a hair above marginal? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Bob T.]

hand 1, I complete every time with 84 suited, and especially when I really want a chance to get into the game. I would bet out on the flop, I think that I have a nice hand, and I have a lot of redraws. I would like to get one card draws out of there right now, if I convince a 4,8,or nine to fold, my prospects for the pot are a lot better. I am looking to three bet on the flop. Because of the passivity of your opponent, you never had to call a raise after you checkraised, you lost the absolute minimum on this hand, I think that you should be happy with the result.If your opponent would have three bet the turn (with only the nuts) you would have had to call, and then I don't think that you could fold to a single bet on the river.

Hand 2, you are getting either 11 or 13 to one on the flop call. I think it is marginal, but because of your opposition on this hand, you want to error on the side of involvement, if it isn't expensive. I don't think that one small bet preflop at 11 to 1 is expensive. After the flop, I think that you played it well. Your opponent played poorly preflop, and one the flop. On the turn, he has plenty to call with, and if you saw his hand if the other 11 river cards came off, you would have been regretting not getting your three bet in before the dealer stopped the string raise.

[Ulysses]

In hand #1, I'd probably bet out and hope to 3-bet the flop. Failing that, once two people call EP's bet, I'd checkraise right there.

In hand #2, post-flop was fine.

Here's a similar hand from a 15-30 last night. 7d8d in BB. Button raises and I, along with 4 others, call. Flop is 9T2 w/ two hearts. I bet, 3 callers, button raises. I call, as does everyone else. Turn is a black 6. Checked to button, who bets. I checkraise. One caller thinks a long, long time and finally calls two cold. Button calls. River is an offsuit 7. I bet. Caller raises. Button folds. I call. Caller shows 68o for the chop. He said "I knew you had it on the turn, but I had to call just in case you only had trip 9s." What a game....

[Homer]

Here we go....

Hand 1

Preflop - Routine call

Flop - I'd bet out, hoping to be raised so that I could three-bet. With all these opponents I want to start collecting right away. Any 8, 9 or 4 could counterfeit your straight.

Turn and River - Routine, given your choice to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn.

Comments - I assure you completing the blind was 100% correct ("and it isn't close"). Screw your left neighbor.

Hand 2

Preflop - Getting 17:1, I'm calling too.

Flop - Yep

Turn and River - Fine

Comments - Screw your left neighbor....again.

-- Homer

[rharless]

you would have been regretting not getting your three bet in before the dealer stopped the string raise

BobT, this is so so funny. I have never even considered committing someone else's string raise by completing action behind it. I am a sheep who always tries to play in turn but I love this idea. Not sure when I will get a chance to use it though. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[rharless]

Well by the wonderful range of people responding, I see that my preflop calls were not bad, I just unlucked-out to rare situations. At the exact instant of the preflop calls I thought they were ok, but by the completion of the hand I blamed the rag starting cards as positioning myself for 2nd place hands.

Thanks everyone.