QQ in the Small Blind

[rtucker5]

Playing in a loose passive 3/6 game. 4 limpers to an unknown cutoff who raises. Button calls and you look down at Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif in the SB. A 3-bet may drive out the BB, but no one else. Pot will be 7 or 8 way pre-flop. Do you 3 bet and tie everyone to the pot, or call and decide how to proceed on the flop?

[Bob T.]

I am going to three bet here, I think that I will win at least one seventh of the hands here. I will make a set by the river 1/5 of the time, and I will have an overpair that will be good some of the time. I might not win as often, if I three bet, or some of the field might fold, and I might increase my chances of winning. Additionally, how they react postflop might make reading my situation easier after we get to the turn.

[Jeffro]

While many here may disagree with me , I would just smooth call. At this point you probably have the best hand, but going in to a 7 or 8 way pot the flop is going to hit somebody, if it hits you I think you are in great position to make tons of money post-flop.

[Jeffro]

I might be a little cautious in these loose games, but I’ll tell you what happened the last time I was in one of these positions. And yes my turn fold was outrageous. UTG raises 3 cold callers plus small blinds complete, I raise in BB with KK, UTG caps, and they all call 2 more. Flop is rags I bet, UTG raises, 3 call two cold, I re-raise, UTG caps, 3 call two cold. The turn bring an A, I check, UTG checks, MP bets, he gets some calls, I swear and I wing my cards in to that huge pot I just built, river brings nothing no straight, no flush and MP takes it down with his pair of aces, took all that heat with A7o.

[eMarkM]

3 bet everytime. Third best hand, get the money in when you have the best of it, etc, etc. Sure, if a A or K falls on the flop, you probably would have to check and fold to action, but get the money in now. I'd throw in one more bet to posssibly gain another 7 or 8, everytime. You never know, you may drive out a couple of the early limpers.

[rigoletto]

Clear 3-bet here. Tucker predicts 7-8 way action no matter what he does, so the obvious choice is to get as much money in as possible with a premium hand. As for tying people to the pot: with the raise from the CO they are allready tied in because they will have the odds to draw for almost anything on the flop.

[rtucker5]

I'm usually 3 betting here, probably 75% of the time. I agree with Jeffro that sometimes the right play would be to see what the flop brings and proceed. In big multiway pots I feel like I need to hit a set to win. What if the hand was JJ or 10 10?

[RockLobster]

This is one of those situations where I believe the right answer is to 3-bet, but I have some concerns:

1. What is the CO raising with? Is he hoping to get more money in the pot or to drive out the button & blinds?
2. QQ is so freaking vulnerable multiway. I'm tempted to cold call and see the flop as cheaply as I can.
3. Had this been KK or AA, I'd raise. Had this been JJ or TT, I'd likely call.

You stated that a 3-bet isn't likely to drive anyone but the BB out. Is the game really so passive that ep & mp limpers (with A9o, J9s, etc) would call 2 more bets?

I know what you guys are saying (get the money in while you have the best of it), but it seems that there are just too many ways to get beat here.

So yes, I'd likely 3-bet. But I don't expect to win.

[Barry]

A 3-bet may drive out the BB, but no one else.

Are you sure of this? Is it based upon previous experience with these players?

If not, 3-betting is exactly what you need to do. It is almost "automatic" for a limper to call 1 raise, but much less likely, unlikely even for most of them to call 2 raises without a very strong hand. So 3 betting is what you must do to thin the field and improve your chances of winning the pot.

[rtucker5]

Are you sure of this? Is it based upon previous experience with these players?

Yes. The field was very much the calling station types that would not have folded for 2 more bets.

In response to Rocklobster
So yes, I'd likely 3-bet. But I don't expect to win.

Why would you 3 bet if you didn't expect to win? Wouldn't folding be cheaper?

I know this shouldn't make a difference, but how would the fact that you can't make a hand weigh in this decision?

[RockLobster]

Why would you 3 bet if you didn't expect to win? Wouldn't folding be cheaper?

I think the answer has to do with the odds of me winning. For example, if I'm a 4-1 dog to win the hand, and there are 6 people in the pot, I should get as much money in as possible (because I'm making money on each bet that goes in). I do not have enough odds knowledge to always know what is the right play, but I'm usually pretty close.

So yes, I expect to lose, but the odds are favorable enough to make it worth an extra bet.

[eh923]

Why would you 3 bet if you didn't expect to win? Wouldn't folding be cheaper?

I'm positive that someone will explain this more eloquently than I will, but here's my take. Yes. Folding will be cheaper, but it definitely doesn't accomplish anything else that you want. This list might include:
1. Getting more money into a pot.
2. Thinning out anyone that might fold (even if you don't expect them to).
3. Gaining information about the BB's hand since he could still cap.
4. Punishing people for limping in with crap.
5. Potentially getting a free card for fear of a checkraise.

If you're striving for aggressive play, this is your time to shine. QQ is a great hand, and it will win you a lot of money in the long run.

Good luck!

[Bob T.]

Right, if you really believe it will be 8 way action, you only have to win more than one out of eight times for a bet to have value here. You will have a set on the river more often than that, and you will have a good top pair some of the time.

You will lose much more than 50% of the time, but you will make a lot of money on the hands that you do win. I think you three bet, so that you can win the most possible here. Let, em chase, if you flop good, a lot of them will be drawing dead while they are chasing, but they will be locked in. You really won't be able to fold this hand for one bet anywhere in the hand, so you may as well make the pot big enough so that you are playing correctly for the duration of the hand.

[rtucker5]

I was running bad and let that influence my decision to just call. The 8 handed flop came down A J x rainbow. I checked and it was 2 bets back to me. I folded and saw the CO take down the pot when his A 5 off made 2 pair.

[RockLobster]

Hey Bob--

You really won't be able to fold this hand for one bet anywhere in the hand, so you may as well make the pot big enough so that you are playing correctly for the duration of the hand.

This is another good real-world example of the things we read in our books. Even with the examples from HEPFAP, it can be tough (for me, anyway) to grasp some of this stuff. Adjusting the pot size in order to make your decisions correct, and to give your opponents a chance to make mistakes is pretty cool. Thanks for helping to clarify this.