How do I not have this guys stack?

[jon462]

he played the hand so weakly, i though for sure he had a missed AK, so i gave him a chance to bluff on the river...
I had no reason to believe from previous play he was so weak-tight /images/graemlins/frown.gif



#Game No : 2597234002
***** Hand History for Game 2597234002 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:15159602 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, August 25, 20:10:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 11529 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Giga_debt ( $955 )
Seat 9: OJW77 ( $715 )
Seat 7: k3vsd2569ymh ( $800 )
Seat 3: Jibbee ( $815 )
Seat 10: baconcop111 ( $775 )
Seat 1: Nimori ( $870 )
Seat 5: osu99jp ( $730 )
Seat 4: Indy9 ( $740 )
Seat 6: lilwinston44 ( $800 )
Seat 8: inface ( $800 )
Trny:15159602 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Giga_debt [ Jd Jc ]
k3vsd2569ymh folds.
inface folds.
OJW77 folds.
baconcop111 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Nimori folds.
Giga_debt calls [15].
Jibbee raises [75].
Indy9 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
osu99jp folds.
lilwinston44 folds.
Giga_debt calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, Jh, 9c ]
Giga_debt checks.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Jibbee bets [75].
Giga_debt calls [75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
Giga_debt shows [ Jd, Jc ] a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Jibbee doesn't show [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and nines.
Giga_debt wins 325 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Game #2597241377 starts.

[yid3655]

I see no reason not to bet the turn and river. Obviously you dont know he has QQ, but surely the 9 coming doesnt scare him and he must believe it hasnt helped you.

The 8 on the river is one card you definately wanted to see. You have won the hand and you are gonna be making money from the river by inducing a bluff / betting with him calling / betting with him re raising. Once again I favour betting, and an out of line bet. A pot size bet will throw him off. Why would you bet so much with a flush etc?

After the turn and river cards, there are not many hands now that wont be at least calling a river bet. Main reason I wouldnt be checking is because imo his check after the turn is extremely weak, he is giving a free card that could complete a straight/flush/trips etc etc so there is no reason he wont simply check again.

[yid3655]

However I do think there are many different ways to play this out, and the way i would play it is just one of a few

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
he played the hand so weakly, i though for sure he had a missed AK, so i gave him a chance to bluff on the river...
I had no reason to believe from previous play he was so weak-tight /images/graemlins/frown.gif



#Game No : 2597234002
***** Hand History for Game 2597234002 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:15159602 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, August 25, 20:10:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 11529 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Giga_debt ( $955 )
Seat 9: OJW77 ( $715 )
Seat 7: k3vsd2569ymh ( $800 )
Seat 3: Jibbee ( $815 )
Seat 10: baconcop111 ( $775 )
Seat 1: Nimori ( $870 )
Seat 5: osu99jp ( $730 )
Seat 4: Indy9 ( $740 )
Seat 6: lilwinston44 ( $800 )
Seat 8: inface ( $800 )
Trny:15159602 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Giga_debt [ Jd Jc ]
k3vsd2569ymh folds.
inface folds.
OJW77 folds.
baconcop111 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Nimori folds.
Giga_debt calls [15].
Jibbee raises [75].
Indy9 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
osu99jp folds.
lilwinston44 folds.
Giga_debt calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, Jh, 9c ]
Giga_debt checks.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Jibbee bets [75].
Giga_debt calls [75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
Giga_debt shows [ Jd, Jc ] a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Jibbee doesn't show [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and nines.
Giga_debt wins 325 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Game #2597241377 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise preflop. This limp is gross. I probably check call the flop given the pf action, and then lead the turn. Failing that lead the river. I wonder if someone could sell me on a better line than mine, I think there might be a better one, although I'm sure mine is better than yours.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he played the hand so weakly, i though for sure he had a missed AK, so i gave him a chance to bluff on the river...
I had no reason to believe from previous play he was so weak-tight /images/graemlins/frown.gif



#Game No : 2597234002
***** Hand History for Game 2597234002 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:15159602 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, August 25, 20:10:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 11529 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Giga_debt ( $955 )
Seat 9: OJW77 ( $715 )
Seat 7: k3vsd2569ymh ( $800 )
Seat 3: Jibbee ( $815 )
Seat 10: baconcop111 ( $775 )
Seat 1: Nimori ( $870 )
Seat 5: osu99jp ( $730 )
Seat 4: Indy9 ( $740 )
Seat 6: lilwinston44 ( $800 )
Seat 8: inface ( $800 )
Trny:15159602 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Giga_debt [ Jd Jc ]
k3vsd2569ymh folds.
inface folds.
OJW77 folds.
baconcop111 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Nimori folds.
Giga_debt calls [15].
Jibbee raises [75].
Indy9 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
osu99jp folds.
lilwinston44 folds.
Giga_debt calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, Jh, 9c ]
Giga_debt checks.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Jibbee bets [75].
Giga_debt calls [75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
Giga_debt shows [ Jd, Jc ] a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Jibbee doesn't show [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and nines.
Giga_debt wins 325 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Game #2597241377 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise preflop. This limp is gross. I probably check call the flop given the pf action, and then lead the turn. Failing that lead the river. I wonder if someone could sell me on a better line than mine, I think there might be a better one, although I'm sure mine is better than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played it postflop horribly, thats why im posting it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I limp preflop to avoid putting to much money in on a 3 outter, which is what I did:p so many people post threads on hating JJ and losing lots of chips to JJ, I rarely have that problem :P

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
i though for sure he had a missed AK,

[/ QUOTE ]

Ill comment on the hand more in a later post as I've only read up to here, but this is a leak.

[johnnybeef]

I don't really like your line unless you know for a fact that he is a lag. It takes strength to raise a couple of limpers early, so bet the flop.

[fnord_too]

your line makes me cry.

When you have a big hand like that you need to try to build a big pot. If villain folds you probably were not going to get much off him anyway, but when he has something you stand to make a lot more than if you don't start building a pot early and keep building it until you bump into a reason not to.

[Morbo]

Not that I would have limped with JJ, but limping with a pair, and getting someone behind to raise, and then flop a set is an excellent position to double up. Not that it would have mattered in this case, but the next time you flop a set out of position to a preflop raiser, bet out. If he has an overpair, he will raise you. From here, if stacks allow you to checkraise all-in on the turn; smoothcall. If stacks are deeper (which they rarely are), reraise him.

Conclusion: Bet out.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he played the hand so weakly, i though for sure he had a missed AK, so i gave him a chance to bluff on the river...
I had no reason to believe from previous play he was so weak-tight /images/graemlins/frown.gif



#Game No : 2597234002
***** Hand History for Game 2597234002 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:15159602 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, August 25, 20:10:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 11529 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Giga_debt ( $955 )
Seat 9: OJW77 ( $715 )
Seat 7: k3vsd2569ymh ( $800 )
Seat 3: Jibbee ( $815 )
Seat 10: baconcop111 ( $775 )
Seat 1: Nimori ( $870 )
Seat 5: osu99jp ( $730 )
Seat 4: Indy9 ( $740 )
Seat 6: lilwinston44 ( $800 )
Seat 8: inface ( $800 )
Trny:15159602 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Giga_debt [ Jd Jc ]
k3vsd2569ymh folds.
inface folds.
OJW77 folds.
baconcop111 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Nimori folds.
Giga_debt calls [15].
Jibbee raises [75].
Indy9 folds.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
osu99jp folds.
lilwinston44 folds.
Giga_debt calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, Jh, 9c ]
Giga_debt checks.
>You have options at Table 12984 Table!.
Jibbee bets [75].
Giga_debt calls [75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
Giga_debt checks.
Jibbee checks.
Giga_debt shows [ Jd, Jc ] a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Jibbee doesn't show [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and nines.
Giga_debt wins 325 chips from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of nines.
Game #2597241377 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise preflop. This limp is gross. I probably check call the flop given the pf action, and then lead the turn. Failing that lead the river. I wonder if someone could sell me on a better line than mine, I think there might be a better one, although I'm sure mine is better than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played it postflop horribly, thats why im posting it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I limp preflop to avoid putting to much money in on a 3 outter, which is what I did:p so many people post threads on hating JJ and losing lots of chips to JJ, I rarely have that problem :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify what I was saying, because I didn't do a good job of that in my post. The reason why I might check call the flop is because legit hands and total air almost always bet in this situation. You are picking up a bet there almost every time this hand plays out. If you bet you usually only pick up the bet when he has a legit hand, although sometimes you'll happily be raised. I don't think getting raised is that huge though, because if he has a decent hand it shouldn't be that hard to get the money in at some point. It's a raised pot with 50 bb's... I have faith. The advantage of a check raise is charging a draw big time, but it gives away so much strength that I don't like it. Check call gives overs a chance to make a second best hand too.

Now that we've got a bet in on the flop, the pot is big enough that it should be easy to get allin against a real hand. You're not likely getting another bet from air, so you might as well go ahead and bet. A good hand calls (maybe raises but it shouldn't matter too much), and air folds, but hey you weren't getting much outta them anyways.

On the river you push and hopefully get called. No room for getting tricky there really.

Basically my thinking is on the flop, any two gives you a bet if you let them, but on the turn and river you're only getting money from good hands, so might as well go do the betting yourself.

The limp is still very bad. You're 2 off the button with JJ, you should be able to play that postflop. People never suck out on my AA preflop because I fold it. Sure you encounter problems unique to raising JJ, but its benefits are huge. A limp here is a leak, I assure you.

[bluefeet]

Personally, I "open"-raise PF in this late of position (even pretty early for that matter). Of course in hind-sight, he might push over the top PF, you fold, yadayadayada...you're not posting this /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Given your PF line, this is a pefect opportunity (this flop) for you to throw out a weak probe/"block" looking bet....1/3-1/2 would probably do. He'll likely come over the top of you here, with a missed AK, overpair, underpair, etc....just reasserting his PF strength declaration. If/when this occurs, I think the flop is likely plenty big at this point for you push.

[Checking the will also provide a CB lead from him on most occasions, but if he did in fact whiff, he's either folding to your "check/raise", or folding to an unimproved turn lead on your part.]

If he simply calls your flop bet here...AND you hit the nuts on the turn, it's time to slow down and check the turn. Continuing from your weak representation on the flop, a "i give" on this turn MIGHT get him to try to take it down (although not likely here, because your proposed probe bet on the flop, might make this second 9 pretty scary).

If you get to the river without him biting on the turn, you MUST bet. There is no reason to believe he will take a stab now, having passed on what was already the 'scare' card. A value bet of 1/2 potish, might still get a call from an underpair, etc.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I "open"-raise PF in this late of position (even pretty early for that matter). Of course in hind-sight, he might push over the top PF, you fold, yadayadayada...you're not posting this /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Given your PF line, this is a pefect opportunity (this flop) for you to throw out a weak probe/"block" looking bet....1/3-1/2 would probably do. He'll likely come over the top of you here, with a missed AK, overpair, underpair, etc....just reasserting his PF strength declaration. If/when this occurs, I think the flop is likely plenty big at this point for you push.

[Checking the will also provide a CB lead from him on most occasions, but if he did in fact whiff, he's either folding to your "check/raise", or folding to an unimproved turn lead on your part.]

If he simply calls your flop bet here...AND you hit the nuts on the turn, it's time to slow down and check the turn. Continuing from your weak representation on the flop, a "i give" on this turn MIGHT get him to try to take it down (although not likely here, because your proposed probe bet on the flop, might make this second 9 pretty scary).

If you get to the river without him biting on the turn, you MUST bet. There is no reason to believe he will take a stab now, having passed on what was already the 'scare' card. A value bet of 1/2 potish, might still get a call from an underpair, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

i usually lead with a probe bet into PFR here, I usually bet the river here. For some reason I was convinced he missed the flop and was praying he would bluff. But everyone is right, of course.

On another note, who checks this turn and river with QQ? I dont think ive ever seen someone so weak-tight on a party sng /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[fisherman112]

you classify the guy as weak/tight and then say you were hoping to induce a bluff. do you see how this is wrong?

you should not make jj a standard limp. it is a raising hand that will be reraised when it is not the best hand.

you have absolutely no excuse for checking the river. this guy is obviously afraid of the paired 9 and will not bet. most people like to call. exploit that. he wasnt folding queens to turn and river bets. if he's weak/tight, why are you trying to c/r him on the turn? he'll probably fold a lot. just bet out more against these types of players.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
you classify the guy as weak/tight and then say you were hoping to induce a bluff. do you see how this is wrong?

you should not make jj a standard limp. it is a raising hand that will be reraised when it is not the best hand.

you have absolutely no excuse for checking the river. this guy is obviously afraid of the paired 9 and will not bet. most people like to call. exploit that. he wasnt folding queens to turn and river bets. if he's weak/tight, why are you trying to c/r him on the turn? he'll probably fold a lot. just bet out more against these types of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

In answer to all your questions, I had not realized he was weak-tight up until this point. I misinterpreted his 75 flop bet as a weak continuation bet.

Anyway, you are right of course.