A Hand Vs TheBrownEyes

[sthief09]

TheBrownEyes is a little too loose, pretty aggressive but kind of straightforward. he has played for a long time so I'm assuming he reads hands well

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

this is the question. he could definitely have a heart draw, and maybe occasionally fold a small pair. also he is a pretty good player and K rag rag boards is a great bluffing board. the pot is pretty big, the board is pretty bluff-friendly for a good player/hand reader, and he is pretty aggressive, so I really don't want to give up. he's also tight so there's a chance he gives me credit for something

Turn: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

I would have bet if I hadn't picked up a gut shot. should I continue with it?

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

my play throughout has been consistent with a flush and I'm getting 4-1 that he's either bluffing (because I have to fold otherwise) or he believes me

[bank]

Why not follow through on the turn?

*edit* didn't read post fully 2nd part of my question was dumb.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not follow through on the turn? To make it look like you have a flush draw and can raise river if missed?

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my impression, but ive never played with TBE so i dont know his/her folding standards.

[sthief09]

I have ADD so even though we've probably played a couple of thousand hands together, I don't know either. I planned to follow through, but in the back of my head I thought he could have a set and it would really suck to get checkraised with a gut shot

[Lmn55d]

I don't think you're gonna get checkraised too often. I don't think he coldcalls with 33 here and he might not with 55 too. If you're gonna make this play on the flop I would follow through and hope he lays down a hand like KJ or something. If he had like 77 he's probably folding to the flop 3bet.

[Lmn55d]

oh and I think I like the river raise. Bluff raises rarely work in this game but the way you played your hand looks exactly like a flush draw. Just hope he doesn't have QJ or AJ hearts or something.

[sthief09]

he's got like a 37 VPIP (though lately a bit tighter). he's folding 33 in the SB? not a chance

[sthief09]

I was taking a dump and reading Improve Your Poker and there's a chapter on bluffing. one of the points he makes is that bluffs are much more effective when you're representing a hand than when you're just representing strength. I was meaning to post this (mainly for the flop play) but that book just reminded me of this hand, since my play is so perfectly in line with a flush draw.

[Roy6]

I really like your play and would be interested if it worked.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like your play and would be interested if it worked.

[/ QUOTE ]


it did but it doens't much matter. I think against a decent player in a pot this big a bluff is mandatory. I'm more concerned with my flop 3-bet

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I was taking a dump

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome post.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I was taking a dump and reading Improve Your Poker and there's a chapter on bluffing. one of the points he makes is that bluffs are much more effective when you're representing a hand than when you're just representing strength. I was meaning to post this (mainly for the flop play) but that book just reminded me of this hand, since my play is so perfectly in line with a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are talking about your river play here, but wouldnt that same logic make you want to smooth call the flop and raise the turn?

Also if you are putting him on a heart draw or a small pair (that he is capable of folding), I think you should follow through on the turn, regardless of whether you picked up a gutshot or not. The folding equity you created, more than out weighs the times he has a set and c/r you.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should follow through on the turn, regardless of whether you picked up a gutshot or not. The folding equity you created, more than out weighs the times he has a set and c/r you.

[/ QUOTE ]

snap

judging by the number of posters who have complained about how lucky this player is and my own extensive experience of him i reckon he is very good at reading the play - i havent caught him nude bluffing much if at all - he will find a semi-bluff turn check raise from time to time but he never raises this turn without a rock

i always played him to do too much calling post flop

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Lmn55d]

yea his AF on flop and turn is like 1.5 on the hands I have for him. He also won at a very high rate over those hands (10k+ hands). With the amount of bluffing at the 10/20 maybe he's on to something.

[Cancuk]

nh sr.

cheers.

[adamstewart]

You think BrownEyes is a good player?? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif


I've often wondered about this player. I find him/her to be loose-passive - except when he/she actually has a hand.

Seems like a break-even player by my recollection.


sorry if i'm offending anyone here /images/graemlins/crazy.gif



Adam

[stigmata]

TheBrownEyes interests me as a player. I'm pretty sure he's not a 2+2'er (because of style), but he does get talked about a lot. Pretty much everybody has played with him for many hands, which is the only 10/20 player we can say this about.

The guy plays A LOT. I also notice his style has changed over time. When I first moved to 10/20 he was pretty LAGgy and I respected him. Now I find him loose-passive and fairly easy to play against. I think this may also reflect my improvement as a player, and also the fact he seems to give me more respect these days.

However, I really can't see him being a winning player. Break even at best. Calls down too much and simply plays too many hands too passively (limps and cold calls too much). He doesn't win enough of the small pots though sheer aggression.

He must be a full-time poker player yet I don't think he is a winner. Strange.

As for the hand, I don't like the river raise against this player. When he check-raises the flop he either has a pair or the flush draw. He has you beaten on the river and I would be suprised if he folded.

[ISF]

I dont like it, he plays really straight forwardly and doesnt fold pairs. He also rarely gets that agressive with draws so it is very likely a pair. He will religiously call me down with bottom pair heads up, so I doubt he ever folds here.

[DeathDonkey]

He wins because he picks games where his flaws are minimized. I'm sure he makes a lot of money off the big LAGs who keep firing and he keeps right on calling. Also retards like me keep thinking he is a decent, thinking postflop player and semibluff etc. more than we should and he always picks me off. I am a loser to TheBrownEyes net so far and I think I am not alone.

-DeathDonkey

[MAxx]

I aggree, no way in hell BEyes folds a 33 in the SB.

He does stuff like ColdCall JTo preflop. I raise AK from MP and he calls JTo from CO. He flop a J. That is the kind of preflop luckbox he is.

Post flop, he is pretty good. Usually aggressive, but I think overly passive at time.

I think you may have gotten a up to a King to fold... looks like a good play to me. He usually doesn't fold too easily tho...but It really does look like you played a flush.

Scheids has said that this player was a big winner....maybe Beyes has cooled off some who knows......but he is surely good enough postflop to be at least a little winner long term in this game.

[stigmata]

Maybe I am being a little harsh. He is a better player than the majority of the opposition. I will accept that he could be a small winner. I am just suprised to see a full-time pro with so many obvious flaws to his game.

I also have a feeling his play has degraded/changed over time, and he may have been a bigger winner when Schnieds was playing this game??

[climber]

He's in second place on my all time won $ from list!

I haven't played against him in little while so my advice may be a little off but on this hand I'd also 3-bet the flop and follow through on the turn. If you dont lose him on the turn I think you are beat.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am being a little harsh. He is a better player than the majority of the opposition. I will accept that he could be a small winner. I am just suprised to see a full-time pro with so many obvious flaws to his game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Something is wrong here.... I've had him on my buddy list for 2 weeks now...

Seriously.

Haupt_234

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am being a little harsh. He is a better player than the majority of the opposition. I will accept that he could be a small winner. I am just suprised to see a full-time pro with so many obvious flaws to his game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Something is wrong here.... I've had him on my buddy list for 2 weeks now...

Seriously.

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a fair-sized winner over 15k hands that I've seen him, and I've seen Schneids vouch that he's a winner over far more hands than that. Maybe he's just a DERB, but I think he's a good enough handreader that I wouldn't buddylist him, despite his preflop deficiencies.

Rob

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a fair-sized winner over 15k hands that I've seen him, and I've seen Schneids vouch that he's a winner over far more hands than that. Maybe he's just a DERB, but I think he's a good enough handreader that I wouldn't buddylist him, despite his preflop deficiencies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the run down. I think I BLed him due to the fact that he had a high V$PIP on and I witnessed him bust out a few days after getting the stats on him.

Haupt_234

[Surfbullet]

Posting blind, initial thoughts:

You're pretty much banking that he's on the flush draw. I'd bet the turn, and take a free showdown, because I don't think he's the hyperaggro type to bet the river regardless once we check the turn.

Once the flush hits, I think representing it is foolish. His hand range at this point mostly consists of K-type hands and FD/strong draw hands. I don't see him playing an AT-type hand this way. A PP 77-99 is a possibility, but a very slim one statistically speaking. He won't fold a K, and he won't fold any flush, or straight. You might get him to lay down 77-88-99 MAYBE, but I don't think he'll have these 3 specific hands more than say 10% of the time.

Surf

[BottlesOf]

I think this is a great example of how the best plays often require you to be on your toes and change plans on two different streets based on what cards came up.

The only issue I see and a place where I might play differently is the flop. I either do what you did, or if I feel like he won't believe me and won't be making a move as often, I may call the flop cr and fold the turn UI.

[BottlesOf]

Yes, this is true, and a good point.

[climber]

Yeah I think you are losing more money on the times he has a pocket pair he wont fold, or a king, or A5 he got frisky with more than you are profiting with your line the times it works.

[Lmn55d]

I also have him as a big winner (i think like 4-5 BB/100)over 15-20k hands.

[adamstewart]

I don't have a running buddylist, but I do love to sit to this guy's left. In fact, I do it whenever possible.


Adam

[Nietzsche]

Yeah, I wouldn't dump him from your buddies list either. He is terrible both preflop VPIP42 (limps with J7s MP first in) and postflop.

He doesn't get enough out of his good hands because he is so passive with reasonable but not great hands and he pays off with his marginal hands. Lots of strange flop calls, gutshots in small pots etc.

I'm very surprised Schneids think he is a big winner long term. I see nothing special about his play, except maybe that with his style he benefits from lags, which is something not all tags do.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very surprised Schneids think he is a big winner long term.

[/ QUOTE ]
Schneid's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2774796&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm very surprised Schneids think he is a big winner long term.

[/ QUOTE ]
Schneid's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2774796&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so he has some numbers to back it up apparently. Still very surprising considering how TheBrownEyes plays. I would have thought he was a losing player. The only thing that has caught me off guard so far is that he CR trips on the flop already, most passives wait till the turn. He did that twice before I learned my lesson. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm very surprised Schneids think he is a big winner long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful reading my statements, I offered no real opinion about his actual ability... Was just simply stating I knew it's a fact he has won considerably in the game.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Still very surprising considering how TheBrownEyes plays. I would have thought he was a losing player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me, too. Threads like this and the DERB one make me wonder if we aren't too dogmatic about some things here. Styles other than the protoypical 2+2 25/15/2 can be profitable, and sometimes I don't give certain opponents enough credit when I judge only from PT stats.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still very surprising considering how TheBrownEyes plays. I would have thought he was a losing player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me, too. Threads like this and the DERB one make me wonder if we aren't too dogmatic about some things here. Styles other than the protoypical 2+2 25/15/2 can be profitable, and sometimes I don't give certain opponents enough credit when I judge only from PT stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be true. For instance, Erik123, who is regarded as one of the best internet players on the planet, has done stuff like limp Q5s utg or cold call a raise from the button with 64s...Both plays that would be chastized here and by a large majority of good to excellent players.

[baronzeus]

He was at 2 of my tables for about 3 hours today. (He must have good table selection, I spent about 15 minutes just finding the right tables for me).

We didn't have any major run-ins. He usually folded the flop when I bet after iso-raising him, and when he raised on the turn it was pretty obvious what he had. (this is obviously from a really small sample and im sure he is way better than me) I see how he is making money though. He limps a bunch of suited cards in any position and just feeds off fish mistakes.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wouldn't dump him from your buddies list either.

[/ QUOTE ]

If u have this guy on your buddylist u will have to add 65% of all players. Also, he plays so many hands that he often gets in the way when u try to isolate - or want to play headsup with - bad players.

I think he is a small winner in terms of BB and a big winner in terms of rakeback.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
(this is obviously from a really small sample and im sure he is way better than me)

[/ QUOTE ]
You are mistaken.

[ghcnoob]

He's my second biggest winner too. Preflop he looks like nothing special. I guess it shows you that preflop isn't everything.

[ QUOTE ]
TheBrownEyes is a little too loose, pretty aggressive but kind of straightforward. he has played for a long time so I'm assuming he reads hands well

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno-- I dont have a huge sample size on him, but I have 337 hands in 10/20 6-max... his vpip is 43.24, pfr 20.92, and he lost almost 100 BB.

[fyodor]

If Shneids says this guy wins money, I believe him. He doesn't win money in my database though. When I first encountered TBE I thought he was a decent player. The more I played him though, the less I thought that. I don't think he's horrible or anything but I sure don't try to avoid him.

My stats on him:

6151 Hands
40.6 vp$ip
14.41 pfr
1.36 af
($2,851)

[ISF]

I have 12k on him, and he is at 41/15 and 2.5bb/100.

[fyodor]

Every thing you need to know about TBE in order to render him ineffective:

He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodnes sake

Crib notes for those who can't find hidden meaning in poetry:

TBE is paying attention to you and not just his cards.

[___1___]

TheBrownEyes is undoubtably a winner in the game.

___1___

[Silverback]

TheBrownEyes has great table selection,

I think TAGS no doubt make money from his tables, even if it isnt directly from him, but more likely from other fish at the table, he is normally well positioned on the fish.

Also he plays well post flop, unlike the vast majority of fish.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TheBrownEyes is a little too loose, pretty aggressive but kind of straightforward. he has played for a long time so I'm assuming he reads hands well

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno-- I dont have a huge sample size on him, but I have 337 hands in 10/20 6-max... his vpip is 43.24, pfr 20.92, and he lost almost 100 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have 60k on him and he's almost 2 bb/100

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
TheBrownEyes has great table selection,

I think TAGS no doubt make money from his tables, even if it isnt directly from him, but more likely from other fish at the table, he is normally well positioned on the fish.

Also he plays well post flop, unlike the vast majority of fish.

[/ QUOTE ]


I've seen him at some awful tables

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you spewed big time here, against a player that will suspect you might be spewing big-time and will call your river bet with any piece of the board. I'm probably wrong, he probably folded and you pwnd him good. But let us know already! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 60k on him and he's almost 2 bb/100

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I'm convinced. Quite impressive with those stats. Also an impressive number of hands you have on him, sthief! You datamine the tables day and night?