88 debatable hand

[rafct]

This is a hand I played today while clearing the expekt bonus. The limit is 0,5/1 with a mix of tight passives and tight agressives on the tables. How would you play it? Any advice welcome, I plan to post my thoughts after some discussion.

Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

5 callers, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop (7SB, 7 players) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero checks, check, check, MP bets, call, call, Hero calls, 2 folds

Turn (5,5 BB, 4 players) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero bets, MP calls, call, call

River (9,5 BB, 4 players) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero bets!?

[baronzeus]

you can raise preflop against a field of 6 other ppl, even oop (it's easy to checkfold on bad flops)

lead flop and hope someone raises behind you...or at least check-raise..or something...

bet/call turn

if you get raised on the turn check/call river, otherwise bet rive.r

[aK13]

I would check/raise the flop.

That's not a good turn card to lead on (given your play).

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />

you can raise preflop against a field of 6 other ppl, even oop (it's easy to checkfold on bad flops)

lead flop and hope someone raises behind you...or at least check-raise..or something...

bet/call turn

if you get raised on the turn check/call river, otherwise bet rive.r

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising it from the SB would be to maximize the winnings when I hit a set I assume? Since it wont usually win by high pair against this big field and with no position. I think players will argue that by raising it preflop, your implied odds go down when you hit.

[baronzeus]

when you hit a set, your implied odds go up by a huuuuuuuuuge amount in like a 7BB pot. everyone wants a piece of that [censored].

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />
I would check/raise the flop.

That's not a good turn card to lead on (given your play).

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about check-raising it too but I did not think it was very good. The MP bettor has 2 late position callers. Raising makes them call anyway, and the board is very draw heavy right now. If the turn is a blank, my equity goes up a lot.
Also, why is it the turn card a bad one to lead? I understood it as a card that helped me.

[irishpint]

i'd check raise the flop. you dont know for sure that soeone will bet out, but with 7 players it's likely. more often than not a late position player will bet out if it's checked to him and you can face the field w/ 2 cold. A bet out gives people reason to call since they're getting decent odds and nearly everyone holds overs (to the flop and your 88)

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />
i'd check raise the flop. you dont know for sure that soeone will bet out, but with 7 players it's likely. more often than not a late position player will bet out if it's checked to him and you can face the field w/ 2 cold. A bet out gives people reason to call since they're getting decent odds and nearly everyone holds overs (to the flop and your 88)

[/ QUOTE ]

my line was not betting out the flop...
Also, if you check-raise you will have at least 3 callers here..
Anyway, what is the problem with seeing the turn cheap when you know a LOT of the cards that can come will be bad for you? This makes it easier when you need to throw away your hand without spending much.

[irishpint]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
i'd check raise the flop. you dont know for sure that soeone will bet out, but with 7 players it's likely. more often than not a late position player will bet out if it's checked to him and you can face the field w/ 2 cold. A bet out gives people reason to call since they're getting decent odds and nearly everyone holds overs (to the flop and your 88)

[/ QUOTE ]

my line was not betting out the flop...
Also, if you check-raise you will have at least 3 callers here..
Anyway, what is the problem with seeing the turn cheap when you know a LOT of the cards that can come will be bad for you? This makes it easier when you need to throw away your hand without spending much.

[/ QUOTE ]

at least 3 callers? are you talking about the specifics of this hand? i was talking in general, since our 'hero' opted to not bet or c/r but the weak c/c line. Sure here we'd have 'at least 3 callers' because of where the bet came come. But when we follow that c/r up with a turn bet we very often win the hand.

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />
at least 3 callers? are you talking about the specifics of this hand? i was talking in general, since our 'hero' opted to not bet or c/r but the weak c/c line. Sure here we'd have 'at least 3 callers' because of where the bet came come. But when we follow that c/r up with a turn bet we very often win the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember the board is very draw heavy - we will have a hard time when another spade comes on the turn, or something that makes the straight possible. I dont even think we can fold that many players since as the pot grows they will be getting odds to call anyway.

[Aaron W.]

I would have bet out on the flop unless I knew there was an aggressive player in late position who would very certainly bet it.

But since you didn't bet out, I don't think it matters much if you check-raise or just call. Check-raising builds you a bigger pot, but unless you are able to get away from your 88 easily, it could make you chase (see the river) more than you should. I like the check-call here with the turn bet (regardless of what falls). I think a check-raise just bloats the pot too much with more than half the players already putting chips in. Are you going to be able to bet-fold if a jack falls on the turn and the pot is 11-12 BB back to you and two opponents? What if it's 8-9 BB?

If a decision now makes you more inclined to play quite poorly later, don't do it. You want to make mistakes when the pot is small, not when the pot is large. This is a problem that some players have when they raise preflop. Some players will always bet the flop and turn (and sometimes even the river) when there are lots of indications that their hand is no good.