QQ, am i clearly beat?

[newhizzle]

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

MP1 is TAG, UTG+1 is LAG, CO is fairly tight and very weak

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (18.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB.

[Klepton]

3-bet the flop.

if they cap, they you can play dead and call down

[Sarge85]

I three bet the flop, hoping to get out CO if he's holding some like big ace.

I call down after that.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[ebranig]

I fold this pf, especially when 3-bettor is a TAG.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this pf, especially when 3-bettor is a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]
The TAG can be capping the LAG with a wider range than AA and KK.

[newhizzle]

i didnt think 3-betting would be a good idea, i pretty much figured i was beat but its a hard fold, wanted to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible

[newhizzle]

i was actually thinking about posting this differently, asking who sees a flop when theres an EP cap in front of you

[ebranig]

[ QUOTE ]
The TAG can be capping the LAG with a wider range than AA and KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, however, two factors I don't like:

1. our lag can always wake up with AA or KK and you won't know if he's donkbetting AK or AQ, or even if he has JJ.

2. What's a good flop for this hand that doesn't have a Q? Lags will frequently 3-bet/cap a low flop with all of the hands in 1 and by this time you'll be tied to the pot with pot odds and be in a situation where you're winning the minimum if ahead and losing a lot when behind.

I fold this pf.

[Klepton]

10-20, if you fold the 3rd best hand to a cap, you're gonna get run over.

I wouldn't fold TT here. 99 i would hem and haw and then probably call cuz the pot is huge.

The fact that hero and a tight CO both calling the cap cold doesn't bother villain postflop is a bit disconcerting.

Is it possible he's on 99-QQ? I guess. There's been no resistance to him except the LAG's flop stab. Maybe CO has TT-QQ; he has some overpair if he's that weak and still overcalling on the river yet not willing to do some raising himself. Surely if anyone other than villain had KK-AA they would raise somewhere.

At turn we get odds to catch our 2-outer with slim chance we're ahead. River is maybe only time we could possibly fold imo, yet the pot is so huge getting almost 1 to 20. Tough hand.

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop.

if they cap, they you can play dead and call down

[/ QUOTE ]

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The TAG can be capping the LAG with a wider range than AA and KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, however, two factors I don't like:

1. our lag can always wake up with AA or KK and you won't know if he's donkbetting AK or AQ, or even if he has JJ.

2. What's a good flop for this hand that doesn't have a Q? Lags will frequently 3-bet/cap a low flop with all of the hands in 1 and by this time you'll be tied to the pot with pot odds and be in a situation where you're winning the minimum if ahead and losing a lot when behind.

I fold this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your advice is really weak tight. A smart TAG will three bet a bad LAG if EP with AQ-AK, 99-AA. Folding QQ in this spot is terrible and you will be run over.

For one extra bet, it's worth trying to get rid of the big ace. Call down if you get capped.

[davet]

i don't see it as clearly beat here at all. I think LAG as someone who plays "random" yet predictable. I have observed that most LAGs like to play "tricky," slowplaying their big Hands preflop. All you have going against you are AA, KK, 8x, with the third nuts especially on a full house, you have to go for it, a full house bieng cracked by a full house hurts, but it is unusual. Also, the betting is probably due to the fact that someone has connected with the turn and river, and they think they have the nuts.