$109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting [Archive]

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Unarmed

08-25-2005, 07:02 PM

Villain multis and has played staight forward thus far.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1050)
Hero (t1145)
UTG (t1875)
MP (t840)
CO (t2090)
Button (t3000)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls t150, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t450) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t450) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t275, CO calls t275, SB folds.

River: (t1000) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t600

08-25-2005, 07:07 PM

There's a rule that I learned pretty early that I think it +EV: someone who bets the turn when the top pair pairs is often bluffing. I thought this was kind of common knowledge, and thus, I never make this play against good players, and since I rarely bluff at donks, I never make this play.

The Yugoslavian

08-25-2005, 07:13 PM

Would a bet of t400 on the river be just as scary/scarier and also leave you with a few more chips?

I think I like your line....but I'm not sure that's a good thing, /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

Yugoslav

adanthar

08-25-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain multis and has played staight forward thus far.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he multis, he knows you don't have a jack, because you'd have bet that on the flop (you would, right?) So he either has a draw, probably with overs, or a middle pair. One of those things just hit. The other may call anyway. Oh, and this bet looks really weird from a multitabler (because he probably knows you are one, too.)

I honestly think you are better off not making these bluffs at all, but if you're gonna make them, do it when the turn pairs the 9 or even better, the 4.

The Yugoslavian

08-25-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There's a rule that I learned pretty early that I think it +EV: someone who bets the turn when the top pair pairs is often bluffing. I thought this was kind of common knowledge, and thus, I never make this play against good players, and since I rarely bluff at donks, I never make this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put the CO on?

What do you think the CO will call with?

Even if he thinks you might be bluffing, that doesn't mean he will be calling you.

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian

08-25-2005, 07:18 PM

You don't think the villian is just calling the turn bet planning to take away the pot away on the river?

How has his middle pair hit? Why would Unarmed bet out a jack on the flop here every time?

Do you think villian will stay around on the river with a naked ace? or KQ?

Yugoslav

Newt_Buggs

08-25-2005, 07:21 PM

yuck, check/fold the river IMO. He most likely just hit his draw and if not might still call you down with whatever he has

08-25-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a rule that I learned pretty early that I think it +EV: someone who bets the turn when the top pair pairs is often bluffing. I thought this was kind of common knowledge, and thus, I never make this play against good players, and since I rarely bluff at donks, I never make this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put the CO on?

What do you think the CO will call with?

Even if he thinks you might be bluffing, that doesn't mean he will be calling you.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. But, he may plan to raise the river; he may call with small pair; he may even call with A-high. I, personally, like to call this and raise the river.

adanthar

08-25-2005, 07:25 PM

Solid multitablers don't try to call other solid multitablers' turn bets from the blinds trying to take it away on the river. Gigabet can do that once in a while, but the average 109 6 tabler? No.

The draw just hit (come on man, I get pissed once in a while because no one ever reads the whole post) and middle pair may call because the river card is low. KQ or Ax not only don't call this turn, they don't limp in the first place.

As for why you bet a jack...it's a J94 board. The SB has nothing. The CO limped and apparently you don't put him on aces. Who wants to give free cards here? Anyone?

Unarmed

08-25-2005, 07:34 PM

Why is everyone worried about the draw? Villain checked behind on the flop...

The Yugoslavian

08-25-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Solid multitablers don't try to call other solid multitablers' turn bets from the blinds trying to take it away on the river. Gigabet can do that once in a while, but the average 109 6 tabler? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said Unarmed was a solid multitabler? I'm not sure most/many posters on here even know who he is or would peg him as a 2+2er (I could be way off on that though). He didn't say what the villian knew about him....so I assume the villian knows nothing.

IMO, Unarmeds turn bet screams (I'd like to buy the pot now) and calling with overs, a naked ace, or anything frankly, isn't entirely unreasonable. However, villian really should/would come out firing on the river as it's a v nice one for him.

[ QUOTE ]

The draw just hit (come on man, I get pissed once in a while because no one ever reads the whole post) and middle pair may call because the river card is low. KQ or Ax not only don't call this turn, they don't limp in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well...I read the whole post...but I'm very, very dumb. So please bear with me. I don't think the solid mutlitabler is on a flush draw....you do? That surprises me....that turn bet seems like too much to call if you are lookin' for a flush to hit.

Anyway...what *does* a solid mutlitabler call with in the CO there? I'd say any two if the conditions are right....but okay....few would do that. So lets say smallish pocket pairs and that's about it? Well, is villian prepared to call that down after the river puts down another club?

[ QUOTE ]

As for why you bet a jack...it's a J94 board. The SB has nothing. The CO limped and apparently you don't put him on aces. Who wants to give free cards here? Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give a free card on that board if my opponent has a penchant for firing on the turn after a checked flop.

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian

08-25-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone worried about the draw? Villain checked behind on the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure as hell not worried about the draw....

I'm worried he has a pp that will call you down.

Yugoslav

bennies

08-25-2005, 07:37 PM

If I were villain with a pocket pair I would have bet the flop when checked to me. This is not self evident but I assume most people would.

So, if he is not so often on a pocket pair, then he is on a draw. Or presumably 2 draws because he called a relatively big turn bet. Or a draw with overs. Or a draw + gigabet pot-take-away-intentions.

Conclusion (I suck at this): the most likely of the two draws hit on the river so I think betting 600 is too much.

bigt439

08-25-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain multis and has played staight forward thus far.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1050)
Hero (t1145)
UTG (t1875)
MP (t840)
CO (t2090)
Button (t3000)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls t150, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t450) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t450) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t275, CO calls t275, SB folds.

River: (t1000) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t600

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put him on, because I think his calling range is pretty loose here getting 3:1. I think you've done a decent job of showing strength, but I don't know if it matters in this spot. I don't know if a 9 is folding because of no one ever wants to believe trips getting odds that good. But seriously, what do you put him on? I think when the OP discusses this it helps the whole debate.

Irieguy

08-25-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone worried about the draw? Villain checked behind on the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unarmed is too kind. A "solid multi-tabler" has a club draw here exactly zero percent of the time, and if you don't know that you should always either push or fold on the flop.

Irieguy

adanthar

08-25-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Who said Unarmed was a solid multitabler?

[/ QUOTE ]

The other guy doesn't have to know he's Unarmed to know he's played 50 games with Unarmed's screenname.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway...what *does* a solid mutlitabler call with in the CO there? I'd say any two if the conditions are right....but okay....few would do that. So lets say smallish pocket pairs and that's about it? Well, is villian prepared to call that down after the river puts down another club?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think something like T9s or Axs can very well open limp on this particular level against an aggressive blind defender but any two is too loose. But you're right, he probably doesn't have the draw. I do, however, think that it's a consideration.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give a free card on that board if my opponent has a penchant for firing on the turn after a checked flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have J6o, I count roughly 20-something cards that I will hate on the turn, plus a few that set the other guy I won't know about.

Big Limpin'

08-25-2005, 11:15 PM

I skimmed the prior responses, and i thought some great points were made. But i feel the obvious has been neglected.

Hero fired at the turn, on the assumption he will often pick it up. *This* time, he was flat called.

RIVER: Hero acts first, holds SIX HIGH. Has t600. Pot: t1000.

You cant win if you check, duh, so what does that leave you with? Push ends your tourney if called, but you have t1600 instead of t600 for the next hand.

If i wake up in this situation, i just push the damn river and hope he folds. And i also multitable in a "semi-solid" manner.

BL'
August stats
SNG played: 0
Holes golfed: >350
Sabbatical kicks ass. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

* also, a 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif river doesnt look too scary to me. You can put someone on any hand to fit half the deck.

Michael C.

08-25-2005, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Unarmed is too kind. A "solid multi-tabler" has a club draw here exactly zero percent of the time, and if you don't know that you should always either push or fold on the flop.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ] OK, so what do you put villian on here? If he has a pp, would he check behind on the flop? Would he call the turn and fold to a push at the end? If he's a solid multi-tabler with a pp and put Unarmed on a flush draw, wouldn't he have raised on the turn? I really have a hard time putting villian on any hand here that folds enough to make this bluff worthwhile.

Unarmed

08-26-2005, 01:40 AM

Why are you guys all focused on what he has? Frankly, I have no idea what he had. Not a J and not a flush, and that's pretty much all I need to know there.

08-26-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I skimmed the prior responses, and i thought some great points were made. But i feel the obvious has been neglected.

Hero fired at the turn, on the assumption he will often pick it up. *This* time, he was flat called.

RIVER: Hero acts first, holds SIX HIGH. Has t600. Pot: t1000.

You cant win if you check, duh, so what does that leave you with? Push ends your tourney if called, but you have t1600 instead of t600 for the next hand.

If i wake up in this situation, i just push the damn river and hope he folds. And i also multitable in a "semi-solid" manner.

BL'
August stats
SNG played: 0
Holes golfed: >350
Sabbatical kicks ass. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

* also, a 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif river doesnt look too scary to me. You can put someone on any hand to fit half the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Damned if you do, slightly more damned if you don't. I personally hate the turn bet.

bennies

08-26-2005, 04:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for why you bet a jack...it's a J94 board. The SB has nothing. The CO limped and apparently you don't put him on aces. Who wants to give free cards here? Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give a free card on that board if my opponent has a penchant for firing on the turn after a checked flop.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I slept well, but when I woke up this still bugged me. Now all I can put villain on is one or two J's. Damit.

Why would he check the flop with a J? Because villain was Yugo (a solid multitabler I assume /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Scuba Chuck

08-26-2005, 04:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you guys all focused on what he has? Frankly, I have no idea what he had. Not a J and not a flush, and that's pretty much all I need to know there.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - maybe it isn't what you know what he doesn't have, as much as it is, what he knows what you don't have. 2 cents. Worth just that.

Unarmed

08-26-2005, 08:22 AM

You're absolutely right Chuck. Every good bluff has to actually look like the hand you're represeting. When I bet the turn the guy is probably like, forget that, he doesn't have the Jack. When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh) most people are going to give you credit for one or the other.

BL's point is huge BTW, but he missed the most important part by far. Villains are happy to look you up with a stack if it costs them a couple hundred chips. But, if you do anything to jeopordize their ability to ITM, they become a lot more hesitant to make the tough calls. There's definitely a sweet spot though. If VIllain and I both have 720 on the river, I don't think this works. He'll look at his stack and go, f*ck, I'm out of it anyway, lets look him up. If he has 3k chips, he'll look me up too. In this exact situation, looking me up and losing leaves him at sub 1k chips. Just folding leaves him with 1600. This is a VERY important point, IMO, as it has a rather large impact on FE after the flop.

Scuba Chuck

08-26-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're absolutely right Chuck. Every good bluff has to actually look like the hand you're represeting. When I bet the turn the guy is probably like, forget that, he doesn't have the Jack. When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh) most people are going to give you credit for one or the other.

BL's point is huge BTW, but he missed the most important part by far. Villains are happy to look you up with a stack if it costs them a couple hundred chips. But, if you do anything to jeopordize their ability to ITM, they become a lot more hesitant to make the tough calls. There's definitely a sweet spot though. If VIllain and I both have 720 on the river, I don't think this works. He'll look at his stack and go, f*ck, I'm out of it anyway, lets look him up. If he has 3k chips, he'll look me up too. In this exact situation, looking me up and losing leaves him at sub 1k chips. Just folding leaves him with 1600. This is a VERY important point, IMO, as it has a rather large impact on FE after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unarmed, thanks for posting. I've learned quite a bit from this post - particularly the in game reads. I've been thinking about this hand more last night. There are only two hands that I think villain has here. Either a fullboat, or a middlepair. Frankly, I think you're right, it's a pair.

Furthermore, I appreciate your river bet thoughts. And very good analysis. Stack management is such an under studied part of the game....

Scuba

Ixnert

08-26-2005, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what interested me most; the river bet for 5/6 of your remaining stack immediately made me wonder. What was your thought process here as opposed to just shoving (independent of whether, on later reflection, you liked the idea)?

08-26-2005, 07:52 PM

Sometimes you just know you're beat and you have to lay it down. Poker is about everything else but the cards.

Michael C.

08-26-2005, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you guys all focused on what he has? Frankly, I have no idea what he had. Not a J and not a flush, and that's pretty much all I need to know there.

[/ QUOTE ]But shouldn't you focus on what he thinks you had? If he's a weak tight player, knowing he doesn't have a J or club is all you need to know. But you said he was a good player, and if he had a plan when he called the turn bet, I think you need to know more. I think if you had a J or two clubs, you would have bet the flop. So if I'm villian I think you either have a giant hand like a flopped set, or you are bluffing. And in either case, why would the river card change things? Of course when I'm multi-tabling I might not follow through on this analysis either, but I'd like to think I would if I called the turn bet... From your post it sounds like your bet worked, but I still think it's very player/read dependant, and won't work against stronger players.

AtticusFinch

08-27-2005, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone worried about the draw? Villain checked behind on the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unarmed is too kind. A "solid multi-tabler" has a club draw here exactly zero percent of the time, and if you don't know that you should always either push or fold on the flop.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

He has just a flush draw 0% of the time, agreed. But he might have some combination of flush draw, middle pair, gutshot, etc. that gives him enough outs to take off a card.