tournament play vs. cash table

I have been feeding my addiction for NLH MTT and SNGs lately and have been slowly getting something beaten into my head.I find myself in situations where I have a nut flush draw or open ended straight draw after the flop. Mathmatically speaking I have roughly a 1 in 3 chance of filling this draw if I see it through to the river. If I get correct pot odds I have been willing to put money into the pot (hopefully on some sort of semi bluff where I am driving the pot). However, if I have a 39% chance of filling my flush this means I have a 41% chance of losing my ass. In a cash game this is a no brainer. Do top level tournament poker players not chase at all. Maybe only if they get a correct price for it. How should I approach draws in the future?

[diebitter]

61% not 41%. And I think flush draw with 2 cards is more like 35% not 39%, but I could be wrong.

Some don't and go with the saying 'draws are death', like JT Cloutier. Some do, but as cheap as they can. Some go for it depending on your stacks (you'd probably always chase if you're short or way ahead against the villains). If there are 2 in and they are sticking around, you got the odds. More than 2 sticking around, it's +EV.

It depends.

Sorry, typo on the 41%/61% thing. It is however 39% for a flush draw. 9 outs out of 47 unknown cards is 17%. Two times for the turn and river gives you 39%.

[diebitter]

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Sorry, typo on the 41%/61% thing. It is however 39% for a flush draw. 9 outs out of 47 unknown cards is 17%. Two times for the turn and river gives you 39%.

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Nope.

First, 9/47 = 0.19 = 19%

Second, Chances of not getting a heart on turn or river is

(38/47) * (37/46) = 0.65 or 65%, therefore chances of getting one or more hearts on turn+river is 35%

[Gamealot]

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61% not 41%. And I think flush draw with 2 cards is more like 35% not 39%, but I could be wrong.

Some don't and go with the saying 'draws are death', like JT Cloutier. Some do, but as cheap as they can. Some go for it depending on your stacks (you'd probably always chase if you're short or way ahead against the villains). If there are 2 in and they are sticking around, you got the odds. More than 2 sticking around, it's +EV.

It depends.

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I'll second this. This is the dilemma we all wrestle with in tourney play and - it depends. Dan Harrington in his excellent On Hold Em books recommends you treat it just like a cash game - if you have the odds then call, and in the long run of playing tourneys you come out ahead. Note that you don't need 3:1 to call if you are playing No Limit, anything 2:1 or better is good enough to call on the implied odds and of course that assumes you can see both cards for that price which is rarely true also. A safe way to play is card for card if you have 5:1 odds call otherwise fold - unless you are in the red zone (less than 5 times the initial default pot of each hand) in which case go all in as long as your first in, but fold to someone else's all in unless several in front of you go in, in which case you are back to getting the odds to jump unless you dont trust the flush as a winner /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

i.e It depends.

[Gamealot]

Btw there is a really nasty way to play the flush that you absolutely should do once in a while to mix things up. If you are first to act, you bet as if you had top pair, something like 2/3 to all of the pot. Sometimes you win right there and thats good. Sometimes you get a caller. Then if you actually hit the flush you then CHECK. Now people are reading you for a top pair scared of the flush. They many times will bet big to scare you off and you gobble up their stack!

[diebitter]

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Btw there is a really nasty way to play the flush that you absolutely should do once in a while to mix things up. If you are first to act, you bet as if you had top pair, something like 2/3 to all of the pot. Sometimes you win right there and thats good. Sometimes you get a caller. Then if you actually hit the flush you then CHECK. Now people are reading you for a top pair scared of the flush. They many times will bet big to scare you off and you gobble up their stack!

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Oh, I like it! That's gotta be tip of the day.

I guess I have never thought of tourneys in the long term. I understand the concept of making correct decisions with correct pot odds in cash games but with tourneys it seems I often get to tell all the other railbirds that "I had the odds". I guess the truth is, there isnt an answer to this other than "it depends". Same as any other poker question.

[AaronBrown]

I agree with Gamealot. You can't fold all your flush and straight draws, it makes your game too predictable, even for a tournament with constantly changing players. What you can do is fold some and raise others. The question is whether you ever want to call with a drawing hand.

One essential question is whether you care about winning the tournament or are just trying to maximize your expected payout. In the first case, you play exactly like a cash game, or even more so on the theory that the other players are in tournament mode.

In the second case, calling on drawing hands is unfavorable when you have less than the average chip count. Each chip you lose is very costly, a big win does not have the same per-chip value. That doesn't mean never do it, but your first thought should be to fold or raise instead. I'd need a good reason to make a call in this situation.

When you're ahead of the average chip count, it's usually good to take the positive expectation play if it doesn't endanger your entire stack. A couple calls won't do that.

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I agree with Gamealot. You can't fold all your flush and straight draws, it makes your game too predictable, even for a tournament with constantly changing players. What you can do is fold some and raise others. The question is whether you ever want to call with a drawing hand.

One essential question is whether you care about winning the tournament or are just trying to maximize your expected payout. In the first case, you play exactly like a cash game, or even more so on the theory that the other players are in tournament mode.

In the second case, calling on drawing hands is unfavorable when you have less than the average chip count. Each chip you lose is very costly, a big win does not have the same per-chip value. That doesn't mean never do it, but your first thought should be to fold or raise instead. I'd need a good reason to make a call in this situation.

When you're ahead of the average chip count, it's usually good to take the positive expectation play if it doesn't endanger your entire stack. A couple calls won't do that.

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thanks aaron. i had not really considered using average chip count as a modifier in my tournament strategy. i usually just play my table. good tip.

[benkahuna]

Keep in mind that while you're 1/3 of making your flush, you're also 2/3 of losing the tournament completely.

I think conservative play is wiser earlier in the match. You can take some chances, but don't be willing to sacrifice your tournament chances too easily.

Make sure you consider each betting round individually and not odds of making something on the turn from the flop or river from the turn.

If you're getting all in on the flop, how is the pot so damn big w/ your Axs and you in the hand?

I'm a little confused how this would work out. It sounds like something goes awry along the way for you to:

1. Early in a tournament.
2. With a big pot.
3. With some sort of drawing hand getting you to a spot where you will risk all your chips.



The situations you describe are the exact ones you're seeking to avoid.