Looks standard (LC if it is)

[baronzeus]

Looks standard? Villain is VIP 1000, very loose and passive. not sure what his donking standards are.

How's my flop raise/river check

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP :#A500AF(VIP1000)/ calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP :#A500AF(VIP1000)/ calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">VIP1000 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, VIP1000 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, VIP1000 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, VIP1000 calls.

River: (9 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
VIP1000 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Why don't you bet the river? I am trying to learn here but from my perspective the following is true:

1. You are thinking that your ahead at the flop and turn, enough that you are willing to bet out, on what would be most likely a 2 outer if your behind.

2. A safe card falls on the river, unless you put him on 99. If that is the case, given your description as being very loose and passive, I would not expect him to be 'tricky' and risk a check raise after hitting his set.

So why not bet out? Seems to me that there is a 50% chance he calls, 40% chance he folds, and 10% chance he raises....

Margon

[baronzeus]

Well, i figured drawing nearly dead to a 5 or a K, but if he has a busted flush draw, he'll fold. I didn't think I was ahead, I just wanted to get to showdown as cheaply as possible (this may be wrong).

Pretty much, that flop sucked for me, but it was worth 2BB to see a showdown in a 9BB pot, in case he was donking his draw.


Who else bets the river? Who just folds the flop?

[Buck_65]

I'm playing it exactly the same, since you lose to any K and villain isn't paying off with a busted diamond draw here. I guess you could be paid off by a hand like 66, but I don't think you're ahead of 55+% of the hands that are calling you.

If you think that you are behind, why bet the Turn and not take a free card? I know that you got one to fold from your bet, but you had a chance to see the river for one small bet with your raise. Then if it is unimproved you could throw it away on the river if you get a bet, or your could just check it down.

Just wondering....

Margon

[partygirluk]

You are giving a free card to fd. This is bad.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
You are giving a free card to fd. This is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is my line OK?

[me454555]

Given your read on villain, I fold the flop. Against an unknown party 5/10er, I take your line or possibly check the turn call a bet on the river.

[MyssGuy]

Personally, I bet this river. You're ahead a good % of the time. Worse hands will fold, which I don't mind. Then they don't see how you play Q's with an over card. Let them think you have a K or 5. However, a raise on the river from a passive player, I would let this one go...

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Given your read on villain, I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought about this, and almost did it, but thought it was way too weak.

isnt there a reasonable chance he has a flush draw?

[Victor]

i see no reason not to bet the riv.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

totally f-ing standard. the people who mention folding should be banned. i can see arg. for betting river because VIP100 will call with A or Q high sometimes... maybe even 32o, just to see what you had.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
the people who mention folding should be banned.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol i like this one.

[me454555]

You're read say VERY loose and passive. LPs usually don't bet flushdraws into pfrs, they prefer to check call away. The added bonus of having the pfr directly on the left would give a flushdraw the opportunity to checkraise the field as you will surely bet this board on the flop. By betting he allows you to raise and eliminate the field, which is not beneficial for a flushdraw but may be beneficial to Kx.

The other thing you have to take into consideration is that a flushdraw has plenty of outs against you and if he's got Ax /images/graemlins/diamond.gif he's got 11. He will still be a dog to you but he has quite a bit of pot equity. Combine that with the fact that you have 2 players left to act after you've raised and the possiblity that he's betting into you w/Kx or 5x and you could be in deep trouble. To make matters worse, if one of the other 2 players call your raise, your faced w/very tricky turn and river play.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
LPs usually don't bet flushdraws into pfrs, they prefer to check call away.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Usually" is the imperative word here. And from my experience, LP's don't like to bet weak or strong made hands into PFR's, preferring to check call or checkraise at end. Draws are something that all fish love to bet though.

Say you're holding AA on the button on a K55 board with two spades. How many times have you been donkbet here by a LP, you raise, they call. turn comes an offsuit Q. they donkbet, you raise, they call. river comes a 9. they bet, you call. They showdown JT of spades. fish love to donkbet draws, and as this guy's draw improved, he bet it again. there's no way in hell i would ever consider folding the original poster's hand.

[me454555]

Like I said, against standard 5/10er's I play it the same way OP did. Against this one specific player, I think I fold. What good is a read unless you do something about it?

[Tropex]

I like his line actually, he can't afford to give free card to a drawing hand and if he indeed is behind, he's drawing so slim free card probably won't help and THUS a free showdown is a lot better.

I always rather take a free showdown with hand that isn't overpair to the board unless i'm 90% certain he has worse [censored].

And as Baronzeus said, he probably won't call with a hand that doesn't have him beat.

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
You're read say VERY loose and passive. LPs usually don't bet flushdraws into pfrs, they prefer to check call away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when has donk betting been a paticularly aggresive act,

looks standard, people love to bet out on paired boards

[einbert]

I kind of like just calling the flop, there is probably a good chance that you can collect some flop overcalls from hands that are drawing dead which would be nice, and if one of the blinds was attempting to checkraise you then you will find out.

However, given the way you played it I feel you must bet the river for value. You will be called by a ton of hands you beat, and you can easily fold to a checkraise.

EDIT: Folding this hand on this flop with this action seems pretty ridiculous to me. The thought of immediately folding the flop didn't even cross my mind.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

And as Baronzeus said, he probably won't call with a hand that doesn't have him beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is almost certianly not true, unless this is an extremely rare breed of 100 VPIPer who folds a lot on the river. since having PA HUD with the showdown hands seens, i've been amused very often as to the kinds of hands loose people call you with on the river, esp on paired boards.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And as Baronzeus said, he probably won't call with a hand that doesn't have him beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is almost certianly not true, unless this is an extremely rare breed of 100 VPIPer who folds a lot on the river. since having PA HUD with the showdown hands seens, i've been amused very often as to the kinds of hands loose people call you with on the river, esp on paired boards.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ahh sorry he isn't VPIP 100, his username is VIP1000. I can see how that got confusing.

This hand reminds me a bit of one of Ed Miller's post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=969383&amp;page=&amp;view= &amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=all). It's a different situation but it's a good post and definetly worth reading if you haven't already. Anyway, in this hand there is a flush draw on the flop and you're up against multiple opponents, and because of this, I think you played the hand perfectly. I like the flop raise because VIP could be donking you with a lot of hands here, and if its 3bets back to you you can fold. I like the turn bet as well - you pay the same amount as if you had checked behind on the turn and called a river bet but you charge the draw - and isn't that why you're still in the pot, because you think you're ahead of a draw often enough to see a showdown? I would be more inclined to check behind the turn and maybe call a river bet if the turn was a diamond. Otherwise, I think betting the turn is better - you can fold to a raise and probably call a river donk depending on what card it is. Assuming you played the way you did I like the check behind on the river for the reason that you already made.

[einbert]

Why is everyone so eager to put our opponent on a flush draw, and why does everyone want to raise the flop "because a flush draw could be out"?

I feel like a pocket pair is a very likely holding for our opponent, in addition to a flush draw, nothing, or maybe the lone A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Raising the flop doesn't really do you much good against a flush draw--they are not going to fold and you are giving them a chance to three-bet, making the pot quite big and not putting you in the greatest spot in the world on the turn depending on the action. That's why I really favor just calling the flop--the flush draws will call or raise just like if you had raised, a K will call or raise just like if you had raised, but the benefit is that people will call you incorrectly with hands like J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif and even 6/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. whereas they will correctly fold these hands for two cold almost every time. You make a lot more when one of these hands puts one SB into the pot than you do by charging a 33% to-hit flush draw one extra bet to draw, when they are going to the river anyway.

[arkady]

well dude if he is very passive and he is betting into you, it is a problem. but i am not willing to narrow his range to just a K at this point and feel there are a number of hands that might pay off.

Any PP or a picked up piece on the turn, river? Hands like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

It is pretty close and decision lies in how passive he really is, my river action would depend on how full the moon looked at that time.

[baronzeus]

Part of the reason is against this guy I can easily fold to a 3bet, and the other reason is I want to fold out any aces which are getting almost correct odds to call, and part of the reason is that I want to bet the turn to get a free showdown. I dont think this guy donks a mid pocket pair on this board considering how passive he is but it's slightly possible.


i could be 100% wrong but I'd rather raise the flop 3 way than just call and give a bunch of backdoor draws the right odds to call.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
i could be 100% wrong but I'd rather raise the flop 3 way than just call and give a bunch of backdoor draws the right odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Backdoor draws don't have close to the right odds to call you, especially considering that backdoor two pair draws are dead to your QQ. Backdoor draws are usually like 18-1 and worse, not 10-1. A lone ace doesn't have the right odds to call you here either, it would need more like 13-1.

[baronzeus]

Right i know a lone ace by itself doesnt by AxX/images/graemlins/diamond.gif does and so does Ax suited spades and so does AQo for the backdoor straight.

[Cancuk]

I like your line here. You have to bet the turn here, and there arn't that many hands that are calling that are worse than yours.

cheers.

[Alobar]

I havent read the replies. But anyone who wants to call this flop is more than welcome to IMO, so I dont raise it.

The way you played it, I bet the river

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

Ahh sorry he isn't VPIP 100, his username is VIP1000. I can see how that got confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry i'm dumb... anyways though, i still think that any loose passive player will be calling this river with a pretty wide set of hands. Of course a K is possible, but trips probably would have CR'ed turn or 3bet flop. And you'll get called by any PP, any 9, any 3, any Ahigh, and also probably a lot of Q or J high hands might call here as well.

[sthief09]

it's either this or check the turn and fold a diamond river. depends how much he'll bluff a black deuce on the river.

[bank]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks standard? Villain is VIP 1000, very loose and passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villian is how you describe him he's calling with ace high 22-44. 66-TT.

I bet this river for value i think he'll call with a hand you beat 55%+

[bank]

[ QUOTE ]
depends how much he'll bluff a black deuce on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think think this happens much against a standard LP 3/6 player. I think a bet on the turn is a must.

[baronzeus]

1) this is 5/10
i dont know how much he bluffs though so i played it safe

2) his bet should send some warning signals and narrow down his range a bit...i might have still had to bet the river

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
1) this is 5/10
i dont know how much he bluffs though so i played it safe

2) his bet should send some warning signals and narrow down his range a bit...i might have still had to bet the river

[/ QUOTE ]


why would you bet the river? he has a K or diamonds most of the time. I can't imagine a passiv eplayer bets a pocket pair on the flop

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks standard? Villain is VIP 1000, very loose and passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villian is how you describe him he's calling with ace high 22-44. 66-TT.

I bet this river for value i think he'll call with a hand you beat 55%+

[/ QUOTE ]



he'd call with those hadns but he wouldn't bet them on the flop. this is important. value betting against someone who keep calling is way different than value betting against someone who has shown aggression. his range is much more narrow

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) this is 5/10
i dont know how much he bluffs though so i played it safe

2) his bet should send some warning signals and narrow down his range a bit...i might have still had to bet the river

[/ QUOTE ]


why would you bet the river? he has a K or diamonds most of the time. I can't imagine a passiv eplayer bets a pocket pair on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont know /images/graemlins/frown.gif everyone above was suggesting it so i assumd i was wrong /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine a passiv eplayer bets a pocket pair on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

YOu really don't think so? I believe that a passive would be more likely to bet a PP than a flush draw on the flop. on a paired flop, betting, then calling down if raised would be the most straightfoward way to play a mid or small PP. also, Ahigh hands get played this way somewhat often as well by loose players who are basically comitting themselves to showdown by betting the flop.

[sthief09]

it's just like them with value betting on the river. they bet if they have a hand or as a bluff. they don't bet mediocre hands. they'd ratehr see a showdown cheaply. A high could bet there, but I don't see a pocket pair doing so. also A high doesn't always bet, but a flush draw bets there a good amount of the time. some crappy players think they have to bet whenever they have a flush draw. still, the majority of the time he has a K. it's a K way more than it's an A, and even if it's an A he won't always pay it off.

[baronzeus]

OK I did a makeshift stove analysis of my equity here:
Any king, any two decent diamonds, JJ-66, but no fives ( I would have been raised probably ) andd my equity sucks
and not even all of these hands call

so I think its a check


Board: Kd 5d 5s 3h 9c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.6855 % 57.69% 00.00% { JJ-66, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, QdJd, QdTd, Qd9d, Qd8d, Qd7d, Qd6d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qd2d, JdTd, Jd9d, Jd8d, Jd7d, Jd6d, Td9d, Td8d, Td7d, Td6d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 9d6d, 8d7d, 8d6d, 7d6d, 7d4d, 6d4d, 4d3d, K6o+, K4o-K2o }
Hand 2: 42.3145 % 42.31% 00.00% { QQ }

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I did a makeshift stove analysis of my equity here:
Any king, any two decent diamonds, JJ-66, but no fives ( I would have been raised probably ) andd my equity sucks
and not even all of these hands call

so I think its a check


Board: Kd 5d 5s 3h 9c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.6855 % 57.69% 00.00% { JJ-66, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, QdJd, QdTd, Qd9d, Qd8d, Qd7d, Qd6d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qd2d, JdTd, Jd9d, Jd8d, Jd7d, Jd6d, Td9d, Td8d, Td7d, Td6d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 9d6d, 8d7d, 8d6d, 7d6d, 7d4d, 6d4d, 4d3d, K6o+, K4o-K2o }
Hand 2: 42.3145 % 42.31% 00.00% { QQ }

[/ QUOTE ]


you shouldn't be including diamonds that have no pair. you just need to be a favorite over the range of calling hands. if he's terrible he could have any 2 unpaired cards here planning to fold the river, but that wouldn't make a bet any more or less profitable

[baronzeus]

Fixed

I included A high diamodns too

Board: Kd 5d 5s 3h 9c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 51.8424 % 51.84% 00.00% { JJ-66, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, Qd9d, Q3s, Jd9d, J3s, T9s, T3s, 9d8d, 97s-96s, 94s-92s, 83s, 73s, 63s, 53s, 4d3d, 32s, K6o+, K4o-K2o }
Hand 2: 48.1576 % 48.16% 00.00% { QQ }



If I remove the non paired A high diamonds my equity drops a couple points. Still not 55%

[sthief09]

he doesn't have a 5

you could probably also throw in some offsuit aces like A9-A6

you also included hands like 73s (not just diamonds) for some reason. he's not betting the flop with 2 random cards

[baronzeus]

Board: Kd 5d 5s 3h 9c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 47.5597 % 47.31% 00.25% { QQ-66, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, K4s, Kd3d, Kd2d, Qd9d, Qd3d, Jd9d, Jd3d, Td9d, Td3d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 9d6d, 9d4d, 9d3d, 9d2d, 8d7d, 8d3d, 7d3d, 6d3d, 4d3d, A8o+, K6o+, K4o-K2o }
Hand 2: 52.4403 % 52.19% 00.25% { QQ }



That's about as close as its gonna get...i think he folds just about every other hand (and he doesnt always donk with PPs/offsuit aces) so I think it's a check.





BTW he had K6o and MHING.