weak hand but good enough?

[J. Stew]

SSHE talks about reraising with second pair to clean up some outs and to knock out some of the weaker draws. I've used that play a few times though I do not have a full understanding of it.

I felt like this was not a good spot to reraise because my hand was weak. Everybody limped preflop though, and three super-loose players were in the pot so I was considering peeling one off.

Then I figured if I'm gonna peel one off should I be raising with this hand?

UTG+1 is 25%, C/O is 54%, Button is 94%, and BB is 79%.

Button will call to the end with terrible hands when you've shown pf strength and board is high-card-scary


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero folds, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Not many streets to discuss but I figure two outs for the nines, an out for the bdsd, 1.5 for the bdfd and 1 for a queen for 5.5 outs.

There's 8 SB's in the pot when the action gets back to me on the flop so the pot offers 8:1, I'm getting 5.5:1 . . . so fold based on pots odds. Unless you think I'm ahead here . . .

UTG+1 seemed average over the 30 I played with him so I couldn't see him trying to bluff four other players having not raised pf so I thought I was behind.

What about implied odds though . . . the button is super loose and will most likely pay off as one or two others might as well. How do I figure out the implied odds I'm getting here? Do they justify a call on the flop?

One more thing . . . does anybody bet out at this flop? I habitually check flops like this in this type of situation. If someone calls I don't like my hand and if someone raises I don't like my hand . . . awesome?

Comments on implied odds, the applicability of the 'reraise with second/third pair' move here, or if this is just an easy fold . . . Thanks.

[deception5]

If you're giving yourself 5.5 outs here (which seems reasonable, although I'd only give you .5 outs for the bdsd I'd probably make the queen 1.5 outs) then you have an 11% chance of improving on the turn so you need 8:1 (which you are getting when it's back to you) so I'd call.

[tiltaholic]

"There's 8 SB's in the pot when the action gets back to me on the flop so the pot offers 8:1, I'm getting 5.5:1 . . . so fold based on pots odds. Unless you think I'm ahead here . . . "

you've got some confusion here.

yes the pot is offering 8 to 1 odds. those are your pot odds. if you have 5.5 outs you are not "getting 5.5:1". you require 7.5 to 1 odds on your 5.5 outs, not 5.5 to 1. either way, if the odds being offered by the pot are better than the odds of hitting your hand, you should call. so whether you require 5.5:1 or 7.5:1 you should call getting 8:1 as a math exercise. whether you actually have 5.5 outs is a different question.

i think you should call the flop. there is no sense in raising this flop. raise or fold is not always the way to think. calling serves a purpose and can be quite profitable.

[gharp]

Your count of outs is reasonable so I'd call on this flop. Raising isn't a good option because of your crappy relative position (you might knock out BB and that's it). Plus there's an A and a K on board, so there's a fair chance you're raising with a second best hand here, and being OOP gives you no free card possibilities.

So I'm playing this one like a drawing hand and calling the flop, then reevaluating on the turn.

[J. Stew]

Yeah brain fart on the pot odds thing . . .

[nomadtla]

First off you don't have second pair here you have third pair, and I don't think you're ahead at this point. I don't think you can bet or raise to clean up outs (because I don't see any reasonable hands that really share outs with you that are going to stay for one but fold for 2 except maybe JT but they shouldn't peel for one anyways), and your position makes a raise for a free card imposible.
To Sum UP In My Opinion this is deffinately not a betting situation

So lets look at you're odds on a flop call.
[ QUOTE ]
I figure two outs for the nines, an out for the bdsd, 1.5 for the bdfd and 1 for a queen for 5.5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good estimation of discounted outs given that a Q might still leave you behind bigger 2 pair (a lot of people play combinations of these cards) or might open a straight redraw or make a straight. So I say 5-5.5 outs is a good esstimate.
[ QUOTE ]
There's 8 SB's in the pot when the action gets back to me on the flop so the pot offers 8:1, I'm getting 5.5:1 . . . so fold based on pots odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's where your thought process gets a bit funny. Yes the pot is offering you 8:1 imediate. But 5.5 outs is acctually a 7.5:1 odds of hitting (47 unseen cards 5.5 of them help you 47-5.5= 41.5 cards that dont help 5.5 cards that do so your odds are 41.5:5.5 which reduces to about 7.5:1) and since the pot is offering 8:1 you should call here, but it's a thin call. Whenever the pot is offering more then you're odds of hitting you should call. And implied odds make it a less thin call to me.

If you made the flop call lets look at this turn just for the hell of it. It would look like this.

Turn: (4.5 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
This changes your outs. I would still check so we'll assume the action goes the same after you check.
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero?

Now the pot is 8.5BB but you have to call 2BB and it may be three bet behind you (we will disregard this fact for now and look at the strict odds on this call).
You're out's have changed. A J gives you a straight but the J/images/graemlins/heart.gif makes three to a flush and you may be splitting with another Q even if you hit a non /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ so we'll give your InsideSD 2.5 outs. Your 9's got worse since 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif does the same as J /images/graemlins/heart.gif, so we'll give that 1.25. Your Q outs are almost in the toilet since Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif is ugly for two reasons and the other Q would give a J a straight, and you might allready be behind 2 pair anyways, so I can't see giving them more then .5 (and I think that's generous). So on the turn you'd have (2.5+1.25+.5=4.25) between 4-4.25 outs and you might allready be dead to QJ. With 4.25 outs your odds are 9.8:1 (calculated the same as above only now there are 46 unseen)
The pot is offering you 8.5:2 or 4.25:1 a clear fold with your 9.8:1 odds (I can't see you making that up in implied odds and the chance that you're allready beat and/or that it might get three bet behind you makes this a solid fold).

To sum up
Preflop: good
Flop: you have the odds to call but you might allready be dead or close so it's a slim call and raising wouldn't do any good for you.
Turn: definite fold

I hope that all made sense, and study up on your outs - odds and pot odds ideas, I hope I helped you see it clearer.

Edit: just saw your brain fart post so don't feel like I'm talking down to you just trying to clarify

[Roadstar]

I think SSHE's concept of raising with second pair(not reraising (implying a 3 bet)) requires a number of conditions such as:

1) your other card is an OVERCARD to the board, so when you hit it, you likely have the best hand (or you could get lucky and hit trips with your mid pair)

2) your raise will force others to face 2 cold, making them fold. This improves your chances of winning (even if you're not a favourite)

3) your raise may earn you a free card on the turn (assuming you have position)

example might be you're in BB with A9s

flop comes

J92

SB bets, you might consider raising if you can knock everyone else off the hand and if villain is unlikely to 3 bet you. If you hit the 9 or A you're very likely to have the best hand. Plus you get the bonus of villain checking to you on the turn if you miss on the turn and can take a free river card.

Let the pooh-bahs correct me if I'm wrong /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[istewart]

I don't mind the way you played it. Calling the flop may be alright but is still very marginal IMO. We have 1.5 BDFD outs, 2 9 outs, and probably ~1.5 Q outs (queens and nines on an AKQ9 board isn't exactly a lock, and if the turn is a Q you will often get drawn out on by a river T or J) for a ~5 outer. Getting 8:1 seems just a little under what we want here not closing the action.

[aces_dad]

I agree having an overcard such as in your example makes cleaning up that out better than trying to clean up the Q in the OP example.

I also don't like raising with the second best hand in shorthanded pots as getting heads up against the best hand is not good, but in a very multiway pot, the increased equity you gain makes it a better move in what is more likely to be a large pot due to the number of people involved.

This is an easy easy fold. Someone likely has an ace or king and you are drawing to very few outs.

I think the "raise with weak hands to win the pot" concept from SSHE that is hard to find the right spot to apply. I use this play pretty rarely, and in situations that are similar to those explained in SSHE. Typically you want to have a loose agressive player on your right. If he raises preflop, you can wait till it's checked around to him on the flop, then raise with your 2nd pair or whatever. Everyone else is likely to fold. You are then HU with a LAG that may or may not have you beaten (he might just have overcards or even an underpair), and you've cleared up all of your outs so if you are behind when you improve you are more likely to win.

[J. Stew]

Yeah that helps a lot. I can see from your thought process that you have to change/adjust strategy very precisely on each street according to what just fell and reevaluate the situation accordingly. I do that to a degree but I see that the degree that I do it to needs to be a better degree! ha ah thanks, very clear