Player tells me to check it down, I am confused....

[9cao]

5-max game with 5/10 blinds. I am on the button with about $1700 and Villain has about the same in the CO. I haven't been at the table very long and don't recognize any names.

Villain makes it $30 and I call with J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and shortstack BB calls. Pot is $90.

Flop comes 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB moves all-in for $70, Villain calls, and I call. Pot is $300.

Turn is J /images/graemlins/club.gif. CO checks. Now I am thinking I am probably ahead of BB and since CO has not protected the pot he must not have a big hand. If I get called I can also have as many as 20 outs.

So just as I am about to bet Villain types "Just check it down." Now ignoring the collusion aspects of this, in my experience it usually means that the person has a made, but not monster hand. What is your move?

[Allinlife]

eaasy bet 2/3 it will increase your chance to win the pot with 3rd player allin

[tdarko]

i bet.

if he has an overpair or a hand like AJ why would he want to just "check it down" and give his opponent a chance with later streets and a connected board?

[cero_z]

Hi tdarko (and Allinlife and 9cao),

[ QUOTE ]
i bet.

if he has an overpair or a hand like AJ why would he want to just "check it down" and give his opponent a chance with later streets and a connected board?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are really ready to accept that he does want you to check? I doubt it. I think he's trying to lure a bet. You don't want to bet this one, with a mediocre hand now, but potential for a lock. What a shame if you bet and got blown off your hand.

[fimbulwinter]

fim

[Leptyne]

So you think the CO is giving you advice that's in your best interest? When did you start listening to the enemy?

Since you have nothing except a beautiful draw take the free card.

[9cao]

At that point in the hand I think there are three scenarios that make sense:

1) Villain badly played an overpair or has AJ.

I can't see him folding in this scenario but upside is if I do bet and he calls, I can hit one my my 17-20 outs and win a big pot on the river, or just check behind my top-pair if I miss. Downside is that if he checkraises me, I can't see myself folding here.

2) Villain has a drawing hand (AK maybe) and is trying to get to river cheap.

I can easily price out AK or AQ (4 - 6 outs), but I don't think I will get bigger flush draw out and could make for messy river. I also can't protect the current pot against shortstack who could be ahead and at the very least has outs.

3) Villain has a big hand and is trying to induce a bet.

I can't see him having a straight here and this would have been a very terrible way to play a set. In the small likely hood of this I still have 14 outs against any hand.

I am still confused.......

[KCFire105]

rolla freebie off and bust his over pair with your flush, but watch for the four flush on the river making him good.

[Entity]

Does anyone consider reraising the flop? I check the turn.

Rob

[Big_Jim]

I re-raise flop. Check the turn.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
rolla freebie off and bust his over pair with your flush, but watch for the four flush on the river making him good.

[/ QUOTE ]there wont be a 4 flush

i like raising the flop too

[mgsimpleton]

cero i gotta disagree with you on this one. i think usually in this situation what someone means is "please don't bet as this is a protected pot and bluffing would be stupid, jackass" to prevent someone from bluffing at a protected pot and pushing the guy who wrote that off the best hand... likely the J did not hit him or he has a draw (which is likely higher than yours if he has one)... i'm betting this turn. if he actually raises me he sure ain't blowing me off the hand cuz i've got 20 outs v an overpair and 15 v a set... so if he does raise, i'm just building the pot so if i hit i can win a monster on the river. i'm betting, folks.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm betting this turn. if he actually raises me he sure ain't blowing me off the hand cuz i've got 20 outs v an overpair and 15 v a set... so if he does raise, i'm just building the pot so if i hit i can win a monster on the river. i'm betting, folks.


[/ QUOTE ]
exactly. in my original reply to the OP i was going to ask "what is wrong with the villain calling your turn bet?"

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
"what is wrong with the villain calling your turn bet?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing. It's the huge c/r that I'm worried about.

[mikech]

stack sizes are a little awkward, landing right between "i don't hate a c/r since i can win a monster" and "i don't wanna get blown off a huge draw." if the stacks were 3k i definitely pot it on the turn and would call a sizable c/r. but with 1600 behind, if you bet pot of 300, do you call a c/r push? if you bet 200 and he makes it 1000? with deeper stacks it's a bet, but as it is here i prob'ly check.

[shaundeeb]

As much as I hate a min-raise. This looks like a perfect spot to use one to build up a sidepot with a monster draw. Also, allows you to take the free turn card if you would like when he checks to you.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, allows you to take the free turn card if you would like when he checks to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, allows you to take the free turn card if you would like when he checks to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. this may be your most subtle humor yet, jim. i think the more important thing about raising on the flop is to build the pot since YOU are the favorite and you hit OVER 50%, now wouldn't it be nice to have a pot built for you when you win? and yes it's nice to have him check it to you when he wouldn't have anyway because he has more than some marginal piece of crap.

[9cao]

I didn't listen to the Villain and bet $225 into pot. He called, and the river was a total blank. He checked and I checked behind. He showed AA and took the pot and said, "see, I told you".

I don't like raising the flop since I don't lose much equity going 3-way versus going heads up, and I think that I can see cards cheap and get paid off if I hit in this spot. Sure I am a slight favourite but I think I can take zero risk and get paid off, instead of taking a coin flip.

My line got messed up when I hit my jack and started worrying about the main pot. Still is ok though since I think he would have called a 2/3 pot bet on the river and I had 20 outs (+EV). Weird spot though.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't lose much equity going 3-way versus going heads up

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has a flush/straight draw.

[mgsimpleton]

given that he had an overpair and played it so passively, which is what you can assume (he really was scared and didn't want you to bet), the turn bet is actually profitable.

1/2 the time you lose 225, but when you bet 225 and the pot is now 750, if your river bet of say 500 gets paid off every time, it's profitable because had you not bet the 225, the pot would only be 300 then let's say villain would only pay you 200, 2/3 of that pot. so you've increased your profit by 300 the times you hit and lose 225 when you miss, and you hit roughly half the time.

obviously this is over simplified since he might not call you when you hit the T or the 7 or you might bet less, but you get the point... you can play with the turn bet amount to see what the most optimal is given he check/calls AA. (in a way, the idea that he check/calls with A9 on the turn and checks the river and you check behind unimproved and the turn bet is purely profitable "offsets" when you hit a scary out and can't get paid off as much)

[Ass Master]

My guess is that the villain is one of many online NL players who are unaware that there are differences between tournament and cash strategy. I think he wants to check it down so as to increase the probability of "eliminating" the all-in player.