Quick poll: what's your play on the flop? [Archive]

chief444

08-25-2005, 01:02 PM

Given the positions, I cap preflop to start with. BB's range is big here since he thinks you're stealing. But whatever. Probably doesn't matter much. I cap with a lot here so I cap with big hands as well.

The way you played it I call the flop and raise most turn cards. If the turn is an A or K I'm just calling. A-high or even a middle pocket pair are well within BB's range here and I think this line wins you the most as he's likely seeing a showdown. Raising the flop probably isn't that bad here since you're likely ahead but it slows down most hands you're ahead of...hands that will bet the turn again.

ReptileHouse

08-25-2005, 01:06 PM

With the limper ahead of you, this doesn't look like a steal-defense from the BB, but it does look very much like an isolation raise and an auto-bet on the flop. I want to raise it to find out. If I call here, I have a harder time figuring out what to do on the turn if a blank hits.

meep_42

08-25-2005, 03:36 PM

Who are the 2 that fold this? Can you explain why?

-d

rydazzle

08-25-2005, 03:45 PM

tough. I voted "call", but almost equally wanted to raise to see if the bet was auto-bet with overs. If Im re-raised I slow down and call down if turn/river blank. If I am flat called I bet turn on blank.

Entity

08-25-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Who are the 2 that fold this? Can you explain why?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

jason_t and his laggier friend, Bob Caffione.

08-25-2005, 04:35 PM

I voted raise but think I could just as well call. He's not folding here so my raise just adds bets to the pot to give his possible overcards odds to draw.

He might put you on an isolation but this is read-dependent and image-dependent I think. How villain sees me is important here.

Is this a WA/WB scenario? Maybe I'm recanting and just calling here to see a safe turn. I think I'm folding to an A/K turn and raising a brick, maybe folding to a 3-bet. Then again, if villain could 3-bet a low-pp...

08-25-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With the limper ahead of you, this doesn't look like a steal-defense from the BB, but it does look very much like an isolation raise and an auto-bet on the flop. I want to raise it to find out. If I call here, I have a harder time figuring out what to do on the turn if a blank hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree his range is wide. But it gets hard if he 3-bets hero on flop, then leads a brick turn. If hero now raises and is 3-bet then what?

meep_42

08-25-2005, 05:24 PM

What do you do on a 8/Q-turn? Do you want to charge yourself 3 to draw to the OESD? Or are you just calling?

I'd be more inclined to call down all the way UI when an 8 comes on the turn, when a Q comes, I think you have some tough choices.

-d

SmileyEH

08-25-2005, 05:25 PM

OMG cap preflop!!!!111eleven.

-SmileyEH

meep_42

08-25-2005, 05:37 PM

Really? I never even occurred to me to cap pf. I give villain credit for a real hand here and I don't think i'm going to fold him before the turn whether I cap or not. As a slight dog to his hand range (AK,AA-TT - AQs/99 possible), I think capping only gives him odds to draw later in the hand.

I'm just not convinced that taking the lead back here is worth the equity disadvantage I envisioned myself at.

-d

Luv2DriveTT

08-25-2005, 05:38 PM

As this poll continues I’d like to see responses to these questions:

Assuming the hero raises the flop:
1) What’s your line if the villain 3 bets?
2) What’s your line if the villain calls, but the turn is a scare card such as A, K, or Q?

Assuming the hero calls the flop:
1) What’s your line and why if the villain checks the turn?
2) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a safe card?
3) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a scare card?

Assuming you fold the flop:
1) Were you born retarded, and why?
2) Were you always worthless and weak, and why?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

colgin

08-25-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those who wonder, the dispute is related to this thread - LINK (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3148469&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) . So far I seem to take the same route the majority takes (although I have made a move on the flop before even though I don't think its the best way to proceed), Derek's path is discussed in the thread. Its an interesting thread and hand without a doubt.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted Call. Against a good TAG I don't see how raising accomplishes much since you can't safely fold to a raise (IMO) and you don't know where you are at if he just calls.

SmileyEH

08-25-2005, 05:53 PM

It's probably neutral EV, but makes the hand easier to play and is good for shania.

-SmileyEH

08-25-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do on a 8/Q-turn? Do you want to charge yourself 3 to draw to the OESD? Or are you just calling?

I'd be more inclined to call down all the way UI when an 8 comes on the turn, when a Q comes, I think you have some tough choices.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd more likely raise an 8 than a Q. If 3-bet I have to call and fold river UI (?)

But if I don't raise either the 8 or Q do I call down a brick river? In that situation, assuming we call flop and turn and villain bets river we face a 6.75 BB pot. Close call but I don't think I fold.

SmileyEH

08-25-2005, 05:55 PM

Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

meep_42

08-25-2005, 05:57 PM

I'm not convinced the Q changes anything on the turn, since I think AQ isn't very likely, so i'd be more inclined to call down both UI. Getting past the turn is the hard part, imo, once you get to the river (with 1 bet on the turn), it's hard to lay down for 1 more, but lots of times you're only hoping he fired 3 bullets with AK/AQ.

-d

08-25-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you fold the flop:
1) Were you born retarded, and why?
2) Were you always worthless and weak, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played.

08-25-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

ReptileHouse

08-25-2005, 06:00 PM

1) What’s your line if the villain 3 bets?

Call. Call down on bricks. Fold if A/K hits.

If a Q hits on the turn, call and fold river UI.

I am undecided about whether to raise an 8 on the turn (i.e., I haven't done the math).

2) What’s your line if the villain calls, but the turn is a scare card such as A, K, or Q?

If Q, call, else fold. Just calling the raise puts BB pretty solidly on overcards.

Assuming the hero calls the flop:
1) What’s your line and why if the villain checks the turn?

Bet/fold turn, bet/call non-scare river. If he c/r's, he's not afraid of giving a free card, so he's very confident in his hand, so I think we can safely fold there. If he check/calls, he's showing weakness implying either overcards he's not yet willing to let go of or a hand we very possible beat.

2) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a safe card?

call down.

3) What’s your line and why if the villain bets a scare card?

Call if it's a Q, else fold.

OK, now I'll probably get shown all kinds of good math about why all of the above lines which include the word "fold" are weak/tight. That's OK, though. I'd rather get told that here than shown that at the table. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

08-25-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not convinced the Q changes anything on the turn, since I think AQ isn't very likely, so i'd be more inclined to call down both UI. Getting past the turn is the hard part, imo, once you get to the river (with 1 bet on the turn), it's hard to lay down for 1 more, but lots of times you're only hoping he fired 3 bullets with AK/AQ.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how the math goes, but it seems a Q would help him more often than an 8. I'm thinking KQ, KQs, AQ, AQs. Only hand I can see a generic TAG 3-betting from the blind is maybe 88.

If we are going into calldown mode it wouldn't surprise me to see him firing away all streets with a lower pair like 99, 88, 77.

Disclaimer: 1) I don't play against TAGs much so I'm not sure how to really handle them, and 2) I suck.

sthief09

08-25-2005, 08:20 PM

call and raise the turn

Luv2DriveTT

08-25-2005, 08:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you gentlemen. I think this is a big part of the difference in opinion between Derek and myself. Derek assumes all TAGs are good players. I assume all TAGs are tight and agressive, and might be good players (until proven otherwise). Derek assumes that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range is very small. I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

Its two different philosophies that result in two different plays on the flop/turn. I do however find it interesting that the most respected small stakes posters who have weighed in on this hand agree with my flop play of calling & raising the turn, where as the majority have voted to side with Derek's flop play of raising the pre-flop aggressor. What does that mean to you?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

colgin

08-25-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, depending on how good of a TAG the opponent is, his 3betting range is MUCH wider.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to add, if we're referring to the linked post... hero had been raising more lightly in previous orbits. If villain is a good TAG he would've definitely figured this into his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you gentlemen. I think this is a big part of the difference in opinion between Derek and myself. Derek assumes all TAGs are good players. I assume all TAGs are tight and agressive, and might be good players (until proven otherwise). Derek assumes that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range is very small. I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

Its two different philosophies that result in two different plays on the flop/turn. I do however find it interesting that the most respected small stakes posters who have weighed in on this hand agree with my flop play of calling & raising the turn, where as the majority have voted to side with Derek's flop play of raising the pre-flop aggressor. What does that mean to you?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why even the assumption that TAG is a good post-flop player means we should raise the flop. In that case I still want to call and raise most turn cards.

chief444

08-25-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

[/ QUOTE ]
TT,

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small.

Chief

gaming_mouse

08-25-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
call and raise the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Luv2DriveTT

08-26-2005, 12:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

[/ QUOTE ]
TT,

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small.

Chief

[/ QUOTE ]

serious... how often do you think the BB can force the hand heads up when the limper is already in the pot? 95% of the time the limper thinks he is pot committed to see the flop. Yes with decent premium hands its an excellent 3-bet for value (dead money assumed from limper), but small pairs? A waste of time, yet I see this more often than I ever expect to see from tight and aggressive unknowns.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Entity

08-26-2005, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try).

[/ QUOTE ]
TT,

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small.

Chief

[/ QUOTE ]

serious... how often do you think the BB can force the hand heads up when the limper is already in the pot? 95% of the time the limper thinks he is pot committed to see the flop. Yes with decent premium hands its an excellent 3-bet for value (dead money assumed from limper), but small pairs? A waste of time, yet I see this more often than I ever expect to see from tight and aggressive unknowns.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If the UTG limper is superbad, you've got something great working for you in the form of a protected pot-bluff when you may/may not have the best hand. It's also a lot easier to force a weak TAG to fold a better hand OTB or to force them to incorrectly fold a 6-outer.

It's not a play I employ frequently, but I would generally consider 88 to be a 3-bet here and 77, depending on the limper and the buttuon, to certainly be worth considering.

Rob

08-26-2005, 02:51 AM

Raise. You get more information raising than calling here. If he reraises you, lay it down.

SmileyEH

08-26-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise. You get more information raising than calling here. If he reraises you, lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.

-SmileyEH

imported_CaseClosed326

08-26-2005, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1) Were you born retarded, and why?
2) Were you always worthless and weak, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put.

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 08:50 AM

It all comes back to what you think he is three-betting with. I do put the guy on a fairly narrow range in a full ring game at least (6 max is different).

Think about it this way--and think about it from a SSH point of view. Pretend you raise a MP limper, and the villain is behind you (i.e., he has position on you postflop).

What hands will he 3-bet with? What hands does SSH tell him to 3-bet with? The range is narrow. The "tight game" chart in SSH says to reraise AA-TT and AK. The "loose game" chart in SSH says to reraise AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, and AK.

Since this pot will likely be 3 handed (or 4 handed at most), the SSH tight game chart probably applies, since there isnt much implied multiway value. If the villain's three-betting range is narrow with position, it should be even narrower from the blind.

So when the read said "TAG", my assumption is "this guy is not a monkey", and give him the respect that a three-bet from the blind deserves. I just dont encounter that many people three-betting middle pairs from the blind against a raise, in a 3 way pot.

chief444

08-26-2005, 08:59 AM

TT,

Considering the range button should be raising with here (and I assume meep would have a really big range since he seems to be a good player) it's really not a bad value 3-bet with the hands I listed whether the limper calls or folds anyway. I didn't mean with 22. But I see 88 as a very standard 3-bet here and I will 3-bet with 66/77 as well if button is like a 12% pfr. It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that's in any way wrong.

Chief

chesspain

08-26-2005, 09:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The way you played it I call the flop and raise most turn cards. If the turn is an A or K I'm just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could calling on a turned ace be correct?

chief444

08-26-2005, 09:07 AM

I think it really comes down to what you think BB's 3-betting range is here. All that was given was that he was a TAG, so I assumed it was a big range...as it should be. And he's not going to check an ace on the turn. Although an ace on the turn does make it much less likely we're ahead.

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 09:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the range button should be raising with here (and I assume meep would have a really big range since he seems to be a good player) it's really not a bad value 3-bet with the hands I listed whether the limper calls or folds anyway. I didn't mean with 22. But I see 88 as a very standard 3-bet here and I will 3-bet with 66/77 as well if button is like a 12% pfr. It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that's in any way wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure why you think the button's standards are so low here. I would guess the button is raising pairs down to 99, offsuit aces down to ATo, suited aces down to A9s, suited broadway cards, and big offsuit broadway like KQo. Raising small pairs against this range of hands OOP is pretty marginal, since you're most likely a coinflip or you're buried, and the flop is hard to play OOP against an aggressive player who will raise a number of scary flops after being the preflop raiser.

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it really comes down to what you think BB's 3-betting range is here. All that was given was that he was a TAG, so I assumed it was a big range...as it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please list the hands you think the BB should three-bet from this position, and those that he should call with.

chesspain

08-26-2005, 09:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And he's not going to check an ace on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so why would you call to an ace on the turn? Whereas I believe folding is the best option, at least raising (with the plan to put no more money into the pot) gives him a chance to fold QQ/KK.

Consequently, calling a turned ace has to be the worst of the three options.

chief444

08-26-2005, 09:23 AM

As in Meeps specific hand that this came from...you're on the button...there's one loose/generally bad limper...the Blinds are tight.

What do you raise with preflop? I think it's this exact situation...or I should say the failure to recognize how many hands are profitable in this exact situation...that makes the difference between a lot of 6-9% pfr players here and the 10-12% pfr players here.

This is all very relative to the discussion anyway. But I'm very curious.

Let's do it like this:

1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?
2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?
3) Pocket pairs...which?
4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?
5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's
6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

Give me an idea where you draw the line.

chief444

08-26-2005, 09:39 AM

OK Derek,

And again...this is under the assumption that meep, who has been posting a while now and plays well I'm sure, has the range I think he has on the button. I don't remember playing with him though so I'm not sure. But this would be like an 11-12% pfr who's aware of situations and position.

My 3-betting range includes ATo+, A8/A9s+, 77+ and probably even 66, KJs, KQ....and I think these all should fair well against meeps range and very well against the loose limper's range. But that's why I just posted the other question in this thread. To get a better idea of what people in general are raising with on the button here.

And Chesspain...I don't mind folding an ace turn. I said call for a couple of reasons...One, a lot of opponents will give up on the river after you call the turn. Some opponents I know I can call the turn and fold the river if they bet again here (although that's not really the case here). Two, if he folds he probably just folded a two outer. This is why I said call and not raise but you're probably right that folding is fine. I'm probably overestimating the ranges thinking BB is a good TAG and not just...as TT put it...a tight/aggressive player.

OK, I'm off to play.

Chief

chesspain

08-26-2005, 09:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One, a lot of opponents will give up on the river after you call the turn. Some opponents I know I can call the turn and fold the river if they bet again here (although that's not really the case here).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly...no hand which beats TT is folding to a brick river card. In fact, better hands without an ace may well just check-call the river, just to make sure that they get to showdown for one more bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Two, if he folds he probably just folded a two outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. He bet the turn. How can he fold to your call?

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As in Meeps specific hand that this came from...there's one loose/generally bad limper...the Blinds are tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meep's original problem provided no reads on either the limper or the blinds. If the limper was bad/tight and the blinds were tight, I would agree with you that the button's standards can relax. However, as a default position, I think both assumptions are erroneous (esp. the part about the blinds being tight).

[ QUOTE ]
1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a normal limper and blind, I would not raise with less than ATo.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not raise with less than A9s or A8s, and if I thought there was a good chance the blinds would call anyhow, I would probably overlimp.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Pocket pairs...which?/

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise 99 or higher, limp with 77-88 (assuming normal blinds), and fold 66 or below.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold most non-broadway suited connectors, except for 9Ts, which I would limp with.

[ QUOTE ]
5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold king-rag, regardless of whether suited or not, including K9s.

[ QUOTE ]
6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold all of these hands.

In looking at the differences between the way you would proceed and I would proceed, you seem to be assuming that a raise is successful at isolating the limper. This just isn't true in most of the games I play, particularly live games. In the 10/20 games I play live, most BB will play with any two cards, and most SBs will play with any two suited cards. (And thats not much of an exaggeration). I havent played full ring online in a very long while, but I'd be surprised if low limit blinds would fold out very often to a button raise.

Also, I agree with Chesspain about 4th street scare cards. Calling an overcard to the board is the worst of the 3 options. Raising the turn might work to fold out hands like KK, QQ, AJ, etc. but frankly I dont think this works often enough against most opponents to be worth trying. On a 4th street A, K, Q overcard, I'm very inclined to fold.

Finally, despite all of my comments about giving the BB credit for a big hand based on the three-bet, after the initial limper folds, I'd give very serious consideration to capping preflop. I know that it seems inconsistent with everything I've just posted about how the BB is likely to have a real hand, but in my opinion, with hands like 99-JJ, it is best to define your hand as early as possible so you can make a decision about whether to get away from the hand before 4th street. Taking this approach gets away from one of the often-posted methods here on 2p2 that I just hate, namely the raise 4th street but fold to a 3-bet line.

SmileyEH

08-26-2005, 11:18 AM

1) All aces except lower than A3o.
2) All of them
3) All, maybe not dueces.
4) 98s and up, lower if i'm bored
5) K8s+
6) I'd isolate with all of those

My PFR at a full table is around 13.

-SmileyEH

SmileyEH

08-26-2005, 11:21 AM

You are leaving a lot of money on the table with this range Derek. You can loosen up a lot.

-SmileyEH

feelixthegreek

08-26-2005, 11:30 AM

From a defensive standpoint, I raise the flop so I can fold to a turn check/raise (a fairly common move from AA/KK/QQ here)instead of a turn 3 bet.

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) All aces except lower than A3o.
2) All of them
3) All, maybe not dueces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot believe it is correct to autoraise the button with ace rag suited, or A4o+ after a MP limper. Similarly, I can't believe it is correct to raise small pairs in the same situation.

With small pairs, you're likely to be an undercard to the board in a 3-4 way pot. Even with your superior position, you can't outplay the field enough to make a button raise +EV.

W/r/t raising ace-rag, you're essentially playing with 1 card. If an ace hits the board, you're way ahead most times, so fine (though you wont get much action because of your preflop raise). Your sidecard is basically useless, and suffers from all of the problems that raising a small pair into a multiway field does.

I cant believe this is best practice TAG button play in this situation; it smells a lot more like LAG preflop under the mistaken belief that you can "outplay the competition"

meep_42

08-26-2005, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you raise with preflop? I think it's this exact situation...
Let's do it like this:

1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?
2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?
3) Pocket pairs...which?
4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?
5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's
6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

Give me an idea where you draw the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty much raising anything i'd steal the blinds with, so ~40-45% of my hands, depending on how loose/bad the limper is. (Maybe slightly less than that, 35-40%, against a tightish/bad limper)

-d

meep_42

08-26-2005, 12:00 PM

In the games i've played, it's not uncommon for this raise to isolate (though it was a pf value raise here). A lot of the time BB comes along, though, it's getting HU or they're folding the flop. And, I have position!

-d

deception5

08-26-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot believe it is correct to autoraise the button with ace rag suited, or A4o+ after a MP limper. Similarly, I can't believe it is correct to raise small pairs in the same situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a great play to isolate a bad limper with a tight player in the BB. You'll get heads up reasonably often here and ace high will be the best hand on the flop whenever the limper missed the flop and has no pocket pair. Since 2 unpaired cards will only hit 33% of the time and there's only about a 5% chance of being dealt a pocket pair (and he'll limp very often without one), we'll have the best hand very often here. And then you'll hit an ace 1/6 of the time and have the button.

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a great play to isolate a bad limper with a tight player in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure why everyone keeps saying the limper was bad and the BB is tight. Neither of these facts were mentioned in Meeps' original posting. Under normal circumstances, barring a read, most BBs will call a button raise, and I'd bet 60%+ of SBs will also.

meep_42

08-26-2005, 12:55 PM

A lot of buttons will call, sure, but most reasonable SBs won't in the 1/3 or 2/5 format. (Reasonable being not overly loose -- and i'm not sure if this was 3/6 or 5/10)

I did imply BB was tight by calling him TAGgy -- but that could mean 22% or 15% VPIP and says nothing of his blind tendencies.

-d

deception5

08-26-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure why everyone keeps saying the limper was bad and the BB is tight. Neither of these facts were mentioned in Meeps' original posting. Under normal circumstances, barring a read, most BBs will call a button raise, and I'd bet 60%+ of SBs will also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, didn't see the other post, but in this one it said the BB was a tag. I don't think the SB calls here very often. I think the BB may call a large number of hands but not more than 50% or so. Certainly he'll call more often if SB does.

SmileyEH

08-26-2005, 01:48 PM

Filtering for the hands I'm raising with and you're folding on the button. (filter for raise - not first in).

I'm making 0.37BB/10 hand over 590 times (80k hands in the dbase).

-SmileyEH

Derek in NYC

08-26-2005, 02:03 PM

Wow that is a really high earn. This is raising after a limper?

chief444

08-26-2005, 02:08 PM

Yeah,

That's about my range too Smiley. I think this range is a fundamental difference between a lot of posters here which is why I asked. And I'm making close to the same as you listed below when I just ran a similar filter.

Derek/Chesspain...I don't think KK/QQ are folding very often which is why I don't necessarily like raising a scary turn card. But this decision would be close IMO between the three. As I said, I don't mind just folding an ace turn. The only real issue I had with it is that we've now really underrepresented our hand by just calling the preflop 3-bet and calling the flop and we will be folding the best hand sometimes. How often obviously depends on the range of BB.

Derek...how can you limp second in on the button with 88 knowing the BB is tight? Whether or not the range smiley and myself raise with here is too wide is a bit debateable sure. But with 88 I think limping is really bad. I'm very positive it would be +EV for you to open your range up some in this situation.

Chief